Question:

cheaperthandirt.com is a good source of the surplus cans. Yeah, I got some from them, and (except for the fact that their nozzle is built upside down and drips) they aren’t bad. Urg, turns out all their nozzles are built wrong.  Who sells Nato spec jerry can nozzles inexpensively?  Stainless is better than plastic for me…

Just don’t use the nozzle.  The cans are designed to pour very effectively without them. Just use a big black Blitz funnel like the one below at your local Walmart/Autzone for around $1USD. http://jcsonlinetoolshed.com/product.php/962/0/

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cheaperthandirt.com is a good source of the surplus cans. Yeah, I got some from them, and (except for the fact that their nozzle is built upside down and drips) they aren’t bad.

Urg, turns out all their nozzles are built wrong.  Who sells Nato spec jerry can nozzles inexpensively?  Stainless is better than plastic for me… Thanks!

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Perhaps you could show your wife the simplicity of a vehicle fuel tank

Good point, thanks!

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cheaperthandirt.com is a good source of the surplus cans. Yeah, I got some from them, and (except for the fact that their nozzle is built upside down and drips) they aren’t bad.  Now I need to store them, but my wife’s (ahem) concerned about the fire hazard, are jerry cans much of a fire hazard?  

Perhaps you could show your wife the simplicity of a vehicle fuel tank, and explain the abuse those take. That might make her more comfortable with gas cans. Either that, or she’s going to want you to park the car a block away from your house.  :-) Wayne

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cheaperthandirt.com is a good source of the surplus cans.

Yeah, I got some from them, and (except for the fact that their nozzle is built upside down and drips) they aren’t bad.  Now I need to store them, but my wife’s (ahem) concerned about the fire hazard, are jerry cans much of a fire hazard?  GeneratorJoes.net claims "These cans withstand rigorous tests including; a fire test (full of gasoline) and a drop test." but they don’t actually say what kind of test it is. I’ll probably just keep a couple of them full and rotate them between the lawn mower and snow blower, should I still bother with a separate shed far from the house?

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These search results might give you some ideas. http://tinyurl.com/7×8ef Rules vary from state to state. Transfer pumps are affordable http://tinyurl.com/5c7kx  I have one like this for diesel http://tinyurl.com/4qwqk You sometimes see them without the hoses for about $80. But I expect these cheapie versions wouldn’t last long with gasoline. Wayne

Pumps, certified for diesel, should NOT be used for gasoline. EVER. they are not sealed for explosive Gases, and can start a fire, in some instances.  Gasoline Certified Pumps are VERY expensive due to the cost of UL and other requirements. Bruce in alaska —

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Gasoline Certified Pumps are VERY expensive due to the cost of UL and other requirements.

I say "affordable", you say "VERY expensive". Depends on your point of view I guess.  This electric fuel/gas transfer pump is $200 http://tinyurl.com/68gth. For those on a tighter budget, there’s a $7 model http://tinyurl.com/3owop.  :-) Wayne

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i’m suprised i read through so many posts about how to store gasoline and no one has mentioned that gasoline doesnt store, i thought that was common knowledge.  it doesnt last longer than like 4-6 months.  read one of many arcticles found by searching gasoline storage at google such as http://home.aol.com/keninga/gasoline.htm .   American gasoline is very volitile to chemical changes over time, since it quickly turns into a varnish like compound and will gum up your injectors or carbourator, and eventually your car will stop running and you’ll have to have your fuel system rebuilt.  you wont have such problems with foreign gas since its not as clean burning and not so chemically volitile.  i have burned 2 year old gas in my 1957 army type jeep but good luck storing gas that long and burning it in a modern car unless you cycle through it.  but in that case you will continually be burning old gas as you replenish your stock.  in my opinion if you are concerned about a shortage of gas you’d be better off converting your engine to say ethyl alcohol or lpg.  you can store a lot of propane for a long time. same with alcohol. not to mention its clean burning. ~Merrill http://merrillballantyne.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

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I have a 20′x30′ old shed that I’m turning into a office/workshop. The office will occupy a 8′x15′ corner of the workshop and be walled off and insulated from the rest of the workshop.  I was given a fairly large wood burning stove by an uncle and I’m wondering how best to use it to heat both office and workshop… Right now I have no insulation…

Wood is work. More insulation means less work… …This is in central Illiois so the winters can get pretty cold.

NREL says Peoria is 27.0 on an average December day, with a 34.6 F average daily max… 830 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall. The roof is a fairly flat slant and pitches to the north only, it’s just a one-way slant whatever that’s  called…

Maybe you have a 10′x30′ south wall. With a layer of polycarbonate glazing (about $1.50/ft^2 in 4′ wide rolls, with a 10 year guarantee), you might collect 0.9×830 = 747 Btu/ft^2 and lose 6h(80-31)1ft^2/R1 = 295, for a net gain of 452, or 135.5K Btu for the wall. You could keep the shed 65 F for 8 hours if 135.5K = 8h(65-31)G, ie if the shed’s thermal conductance G = 498 Btu/h-F or less. G = 900 ft^2/R makes R = 1.8. Not much 2) Can I distribute the heat by routing the exhaust pipe through the building…? I wouldn’t be running exhaust pipe all over just for the heat it produces. You want a good ‘draw’ on the stove to get it operating at its best.

That might come from Grainger’s $80.55 4C941 450 F 136 cfm blower with their $16.38 4WZ05 speed control pushing cooled flue gas up a chimney. …you need it above the roof line to get a good draw.

A forced draft might go out a window… I put a damper on the pipe just above the stove.  Between this and the air intakes on the doors of the stove I could control the heat very well.

You might control the heat with a thermostat (eg Grainger’s $13.25 2E158) that turns off the draft blower when the room’s warm enough. Another in series might turn on the blower when the stove is hot. So long as you don’t need a natural draft, why not suck more heat out of the fluepipe? The draft blower might be near the outdoor chimney connection (if any) and its long 6" fluepipe could draw air from the stove outlet. Meanwhile, the middle part of the fluepipe could be inside a 10" pipe with a T and a 10" to 6" reducer at the chimney end to make an air-air heat exchanger, with the T mounted horizontally, with Grainger’s $70.85 4C847 550 cfm 10" fan at the far end of the T (also controlled by the room temp thermostat) pushing room air into the T, through the space between the inner and outer pipes. The room air would emerge warmer from the end near the stove. Meanwhilst, the flue pipe would slope towards the chimney, and flue gas would enter the blower from the 6" vertical pipe below the T, via an elbow with a pinhole to let condensation drip into a bucket and exit the blower into the outdoor chimney connection at X. A condensing chimney might produce at least 15% more latent heat than one without, with the same wood consumption. The setup might look like this, in a fixed font like Courier:                  ||                            –       blower |                  ||   |<–       L        –| draft    |         | inlet– |  stove  |            |     |                        |bucket| If 20 cfm of 600 F flue gas (about 12K Btu/h of sensible heat) enters the L’ fluepipe and the fan pushes 400 cfm of 70 F room air into the 10" pipe and we want a 212 F exiting flue gas temp, E = (600-212)/(600-70) = 0.73. Z = Cmin/Cmax = 20/400 = 0.05 and E = (1-e^-(1-Z)NTU))/(1-Ze^-(1-Z)NTU)), so NTU = 1.347 = AU/Cmin, = 3.14L/20 in this counterflow heat exchanger, and L = 8.57 feet, or less, with condensation. L = 10′ would be convenient. Nick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Might want to watch for condensation problems if using 55 gal drums.. We did that in houston once during the last gas shortage and got water in gas…M.M. Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

No condensation, if you keep the Drum sealed.  Just allow for heat expansion. Bruce in alaska —

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Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

Most Municipalities that have Fire Departments have VERY Strict Regulations for Gasoline Storage of more than 5 gallons, due to it’s low Flash Temp and Hi Flamability.  Before you get to far, you need to contact the Fire Marshal in your jurasdiction, and get the regs.  55 Gallon Drums work very well for us bush folks, but you need to rotate your fuel if your using Gasoline, as it tends to get gummy with age. Bruce in alaska —

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Might want to watch for condensation problems if using 55 gal drums.. We did that in houston once during the last gas shortage and got water in gas…M.M.

     Good point but…  Keep the drums sealed up tight and there is no way that moisture can get inside to condense.  A little alcohol also will solve the problem. Vaughn

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Might want to watch for condensation problems if using 55 gal drums.. We did that in houston once during the last gas shortage and got water in gas…M.M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

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Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

These search results might give you some ideas. http://tinyurl.com/7×8ef Rules vary from state to state. Transfer pumps are affordable http://tinyurl.com/5c7kx  I have one like this for diesel http://tinyurl.com/4qwqk You sometimes see them without the hoses for about $80. But I expect these cheapie versions wouldn’t last long with gasoline. Wayne

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Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…)

Unless you live in a rural area, I think 20 used 5 gallon NATO "Jerry Cans" stored in a ventilated shed away from your house is your best bet.  The NATO cans are sturdy metal with rubber gaskets so they don’t leak fumes and don’t bulge (much). cheaperthandirt.com is a good source of the surplus cans.  You can order them 9 at a time from them and don’t need to pay extra shipping charges.

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Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?  Obviously, 20 5-gallon cans are expensive and difficult to store, my many plastic cans bulge in the summer (which makes me a bit nervous), is there anything else I can do?  I’m envisioning a 275-gallon fuel oil tank with a transfer pump to fill the cars from, and regular gasoline deliveries, is that something do-able without jumping thru lots of hoops (double tanks, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah…) Thanks for any thoughts!

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Is there any easy way for the average homeowner to store around 100 gallons of gasoline?

2 55 gallon drums, and a drum pump, vent valve, etc – but you still may have a problem actually getting fuel delivered. Also, the fire department may not like it, & your insurance company may not like it. Think about a house fire and the reason will be obvious. A typical farm setup puts the fuel storage away from other buildings to reduce the hazard. IIRC, fuel oil tanks are not suited to gasoline, but I could be wrong. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

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Question:

   FWIW, the theoretical limit for this type of refrigerator is somewhere around -44

Question:

Live in an old farmhouse….(snip)

It’s all specified in the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) 211 Handbook. Unfortunately, they don’t make this publication available online (they sell it…). Check out:        http://www.hearth.com/info.html I believe you will find the information you need there.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If my understanding is correct, the clearance needed for a stove and stove pipe is determined by the testing of specific materials.  I installed a stove purchased from http://www.raiswittus.com/  At that time I needed 18 inches from wall to pipe–the stove clearance was less so the pipe became the determining factor.  Since that time the pipes were tested further and the distance was reduced. The point here is that the clearance is specific to how well the equipment tested. Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good  to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe  out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but  would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make  a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100  years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s  not a battle worth fighting.

There are danger signes all over the OPs post.  An old house. A flue (?pipe?) exiting the wall to a chimney.  I wouldn’t even consider using that set up without a full inspection of the existing chimney condition first and professional advice (not brochure) as to how to connect to it.  The brochure/literature is fine as to clearances but the connection sounds shaky at best to me. Harry K

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writes: Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code?

Make a drawing of what you want to do and take it to your local building official.  You need to get a permit to install a wood stove in any case.   You will pay a plan check fee.  Get your money’s worth. You didn’t describe the chimney at all.  Is it lined with 2" clearance to combustibles?  If not, you will have to knock it down and build a new one.  While you are at it, you may as well move it.  Even if it is lined, it sounds like you need to knock the old collar off it and install a new triple wall collar. The building official may want you to install a new EPA rated stove.   There is an exception for antique wood stoves.  Be sure to ask about this if it is a problem. Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look.

That may be the only way to use your existing stove.  It still doesn’t address the safety of the chimney. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100 years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s not a battle worth fighting.

The flu may have been there that long, but the corner may not.  You could always solve the problem by knocking out the interior wall.   — http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Response:

If my understanding is correct, the clearance needed for a stove and stove pipe is determined by the testing of specific materials.  I installed a stove purchased from http://www.raiswittus.com/  At that time I needed 18 inches from wall to pipe–the stove clearance was less so the pipe became the determining factor.  Since that time the pipes were tested further and the distance was reduced. The point here is that the clearance is specific to how well the equipment tested. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100 years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s not a battle worth fighting.

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Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100 years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s not a battle worth fighting.

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fireproof board is usually brick or tile so it usually looks OK as that is how fireplaces always are.  The question is when was the fireplace installed as all it needs to meet for code is the code that existed when the fireplace was installed.  Did you just change the fireplace? Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100 years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s not a battle worth fighting.

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"J. Chris Tilton" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it. The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look. Anybody else go thru this, what was your solution?    I was going to make a smart aleck comment about the farmhouse having been here for over 100 years with the flu (and stove) in it’s current location, but figured that it’s not a battle worth fighting.

This is the way to go The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code? If it is possible, run pipe straight up through roof (not existing flue). You really do not want to run any 90 degree elbows (if at all possible). Once you disconnect the existing situation. It must be brought up to local code. most Local codes DO NOT let you re-use existing flues. check with your Local Town Inspector.

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Live in an old farmhouse.  There is a chimney with a flue opening in the corner of our family room.  The flue is about 1 foot out from the wall in the corner (the flue does exit an outside wall to the chimney).  We had an insurance guy out a few weeks ago and he stated that this not code – the stove and flue needed to be like 36inches away from the the wall, or the walls in question needed to be covered with a fireproof board around the area of the woodstove.  He sent some info the mail this week.  But it was very confusing. Material A can be used in certain situations and is good to Y inches away from a heat source; Material B can be used and is good to X inches.  Air spaces between heat barrier and wall, etc.  My head was swimming after trying to make heads or tails out of it.

Because the flue passes through the wall the insurance guy probably did not say the flue must be 36" distant from the wall. Perhaps he said only that the stove must be 36" from the wall.  (You can buy stove pipe lengths and angles to connect almost any stove to almost any flue.) The current plan is to angle the woodstove away from the corner so that it doesn’t sit within 36" of either wall.  Use double walled insulated pipe out of stove and up to flue.  Would this satisfy the current code?

Yes only if (either of) (1)  The code requires no special wall material stoves 36" from any wall; or (2)  Your actual wall material is one of those allowed in the code for stoves 36" distant. Alternately, I could leave the woodstove in it’s current location, but would have to put some sort of fire board on either wall in the corner.  I’m not sure about the expense, or how this would look.

If the stove is 12 inches from the wall and if the code specifies a fireproof material that would permit a stove to be within 10" (assuming the material is 2" thick) you could do this.  We simply do not know whether your code has such a specification. Your current stove is almost certainly not as old as the house. — Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

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Question:

I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

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Why do you have filters in the wall? The furnace does not care if it burns dirty air. I do not think this is a good idea. Starving a furnace of oxygen for combustion creates carbon monoxide. Also if flow is restricted then it is more likely that the exhaust and heat will not go out the vent as they are supposed to. This could possibly result in backflow and fire. Pull out the filters and ensure an uninterupted flow of fresh air to the furnace. You do not want to kill yourself and your family do you? Expanding foam is flammable (I think) and I would not use it to seal a vent pipe. Why are you concerned about sealing the vent pipe in this way? The usual slip or snap connections provide an adequate seal. The exhaust is not under much pressure so you do not need to be so concerned about sealing this. Since you don’t seem to have much knowledge about this, I recommend that you consult a local professional. If you keep going the way you are going you may create a very dangerous situation. — -Jack

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

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The only thing I would add is, any time you have an exhaust flue pipe going through any type wood barrier, it should be either double wall air gap pipe or triple wall air gap pipe, depending on the inside temperature of the exhaust.  I agree, you need professional advice for what you are trying to do, which I assume is to ward off a dust fire. Tom J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do you have filters in the wall? The furnace does not care if it burns dirty air. I do not think this is a good idea. Starving a furnace of oxygen for combustion creates carbon monoxide. Also if flow is restricted then it is more likely that the exhaust and heat will not go out the vent as they are supposed to. This could possibly result in backflow and fire. Pull out the filters and ensure an uninterupted flow of fresh air to the furnace. You do not want to kill yourself and your family do you? Expanding foam is flammable (I think) and I would not use it to seal a vent pipe. Why are you concerned about sealing the vent pipe in this way? The usual slip or snap connections provide an adequate seal. The exhaust is not under much pressure so you do not need to be so concerned about sealing this. Since you don’t seem to have much knowledge about this, I recommend that you consult a local professional. If you keep going the way you are going you may create a very dangerous situation. — -Jack I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

You might want to check with the local building code people.  Whether something will "work" or not isn’t enough.  If it "works" but is illegal and your building goes up, your insurance people may be inclined to take a pass on paying off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

Chip, you’re scaring me here. I’m sure that your plan is a good one, but before you go any further, you may want to spend $50 for a service call and have a qualified (furnace) tech. come out and "oversee" what you’re trying to do. Between Fire and Carbon Monoxide, furnace modifications are not something you want to take lightly. Good luck and please make that call.. Rob http://www.robswoodworking.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

Going to throw in my two pennies here—I totally agree with the other guys–are you trying to seal off the furnace, so shop fumes/dust don;t get spread through the house?  I can see the advantage of that, but there are mechanical codes for a reason…to protect your lives and posessions.  Call a pro–ask if he will sit down with you to consult on how to do this the right way—it’s money well spent—tell him that you will have him or someone experienced do the work, and he might be willing to give you some up front advice in order to get the business—LISTEN to what he has to say! IN general, the amount of combustion air that has to be available to the furnace AT THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM!  is the amount of airthat gets soncumed in combustion, plus the volume of flue gasses going up(or out) the exhaust flue.  THe calculations can get complex depending on different factors, and most HVAC shops of any size have at least one engineer on staff, with the calculating software(costing thousands, sometimes), to figure it out, based on the recent codes.  THis isn;t a guess and by golly thing to try at home. To seal the exhaust duct to the chiney/flue, etc., there are special high temperature compounds that get used–if the flue goes into masonary, and is of a high enough temperature, often refractory cement is used to make the seal–other compounds are used on other materials, including the double and triple wall flues.  One possibility to ask your HVAC pro about, is if you can get the type of multiple wall flue. that has one passage for INCOMING combustion air, and another pasage for outgoing gasses.  THis helps kinda preheat the combustion air a bit, and helps keep the furnace area a bit warmer.  Good luck, and, please!! Call a pro in on this!! Don;t take a chance with you, your families lives and possesions!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chip, you’re scaring me here. I’m sure that your plan is a good one, but before you go any further, you may want to spend $50 for a service call and have a qualified (furnace) tech. come out and "oversee" what you’re trying to do. Between Fire and Carbon Monoxide, furnace modifications are not something you want to take lightly. Good luck and please make that call.. Rob http://www.robswoodworking.com I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

First, you should not be doing what you are doing.  The fact that you have done this much without proper knowledge could put your family at risk.  This was not smart. Furnaces have vent requirements.  Check the owners manual.  Some must have 3-4 feet of free space in front or on the sides, others can be located pretty close to a wall.  Each brand has its own requriements. As for make up air, it depends on the furnace and the efficiency. Mine is about 10 years old, 80+, and it gets make up air from the house.  Choking off that air supply could cause all kinds of problems including failure to vent, which could kill everyone in the house potentially.  Yes, there are safety features to prevent this, but I would rather do it right than rely on a feature.  If you do not get a good vent, which could happen with a lack of make up air, the fumes stay in the house.  At the least, get a carbon monoxide detector near the furnace RIGHT NOW. Some models use a direct vent system where the intake and exhaust come through one pipe.  The inside pipe does one while the space around it does the other.  In this case make up air is usually not needed.

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I agree with the other’s. The amount of combustion air depends on the furnace, type, and # of BTUs of input.  It is really simple for the most part and would follow all the rules for putting a grate in a furnace room door. The best way would be to consult a Pro.  I could give you HVAC formulas but there are too many variations. — Young Carpenter "If you’re not confused, You’re not trying hard enough!"

I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

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Response:

well, maybe I should have been more clear. I have built 2 walls 10 feet out on each side from the furnace. One of the walls contains 4 25×16x1 furnace filters, so one wall is half filters. The room is by no means closed off to air, Yes I did seal off the other joints except for the door which is not on yet. I have not altered how the furnace vents, I just want to seal around the vent pipe. This mainly to seal out dust, yes I have several dust collectors and filters but dust still gets in. I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air. Let’s all chill out for the moment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks First, you should not be doing what you are doing.  The fact that you have done this much without proper knowledge could put your family at risk.  This was not smart. Furnaces have vent requirements.  Check the owners manual.  Some must have 3-4 feet of free space in front or on the sides, others can be located pretty close to a wall.  Each brand has its own requriements. As for make up air, it depends on the furnace and the efficiency. Mine is about 10 years old, 80+, and it gets make up air from the house.  Choking off that air supply could cause all kinds of problems including failure to vent, which could kill everyone in the house potentially.  Yes, there are safety features to prevent this, but I would rather do it right than rely on a feature.  If you do not get a good vent, which could happen with a lack of make up air, the fumes stay in the house.  At the least, get a carbon monoxide detector near the furnace RIGHT NOW. Some models use a direct vent system where the intake and exhaust come through one pipe.  The inside pipe does one while the space around it does the other.  In this case make up air is usually not needed.

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. I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air.

I have too, it does not mean it is right though! You probably have enough filter area for combustion air, as long as the filters are clean. Your methods are not up to codes though! Why not get the combustion air from outside and close the room off completely from the shop area? Also, as for sealing around the vent pipe it depends on the type of venting. I can not see your furnace from here, but single wall vent typically needs 6" if clearance to combustibles, double wall "B" vent needs 1". Combustibles are wood, sheetrock, wood paneling, plywood, etc. To seal a wall where the venting passes through the best way is to leave a hole large enough for the clearances required, then seal up the rest with sheet metal cut to fit around the pipe. I highly recommend getting a local HVAC tech to look things over for you. After all it is you home and families lives we are talking about here! Greg

Response:

Well, I was not aware that I could bring in combustion air, I’ve read that most furnaces now days have that though. What part am I doing that is not up to codes? I assumed closing the room off entirely, which is what I really want to do was a no no. I see on the side of my furnace a cutout for a air duct that goes in the combustion chamber, I assume this is where the air would enter. Is it typically blown in via a fan or just open duct to outside? Yes, I was well aware it might not be code, how this house even made it past an inspector in the first place is beyond me. I will call a HAVAC man before I put the door on.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air. I have too, it does not mean it is right though! You probably have enough filter area for combustion air, as long as the filters are clean. Your methods are not up to codes though! Why not get the combustion air from outside and close the room off completely from the shop area? Also, as for sealing around the vent pipe it depends on the type of venting. I can not see your furnace from here, but single wall vent typically needs 6" if clearance to combustibles, double wall "B" vent needs 1". Combustibles are wood, sheetrock, wood paneling, plywood, etc. To seal a wall where the venting passes through the best way is to leave a hole large enough for the clearances required, then seal up the rest with sheet metal cut to fit around the pipe. I highly recommend getting a local HVAC tech to look things over for you. After all it is you home and families lives we are talking about here! Greg

Response:

If you were to proceed as planned, I believe you would find that you would experience one of the following problems: 1. Furnace would either fail to start or shut down and lock out on the airflow sensor safety switch. 2. Flame rollout sensor would open circuit causing shutdown and requiring service call to replace. Also, Expanding foam could release toxic fumes when heated. You will need to supply additional air from outside.  You do not need to "pump" air into the room.  But you should run a 6" duct from the outside to the front of the furnace by the burner compartment.  You cannot have a negative pressure in the room containing the furnace while the furnace is operating.  Do NOT put expanding foam on the vent pipe.  There should be no need to seal the vent pipe.  As for the pipe being hot, the efficiency rating of the furnace determines the flue gas temperatures. For a non-condensing furnace, the flue gas temperature needs to be 350 deggrees + the combustion air temperature to prevent condensing in the flue pipe/chimney. Hope this is helpful to you. Former HVAC technician – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

Chill out? OK, Chip, whatever you say (this is me packing my tools, walking down your driveway shaking my head and getting in my pick-up truck to drive away) Best of luck Chip, and I do mean it. Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, maybe I should have been more clear. I have built 2 walls 10 feet out on each side from the furnace. One of the walls contains 4 25×16x1 furnace filters, so one wall is half filters. The room is by no means closed off to air, Yes I did seal off the other joints except for the door which is not on yet. I have not altered how the furnace vents, I just want to seal around the vent pipe. This mainly to seal out dust, yes I have several dust collectors and filters but dust still gets in. I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air. Let’s all chill out for the moment. I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks First, you should not be doing what you are doing.  The fact that you have done this much without proper knowledge could put your family at risk.  This was not smart. Furnaces have vent requirements.  Check the owners manual.  Some must have 3-4 feet of free space in front or on the sides, others can be located pretty close to a wall.  Each brand has its own requriements. As for make up air, it depends on the furnace and the efficiency. Mine is about 10 years old, 80+, and it gets make up air from the house.  Choking off that air supply could cause all kinds of problems including failure to vent, which could kill everyone in the house potentially.  Yes, there are safety features to prevent this, but I would rather do it right than rely on a feature.  If you do not get a good vent, which could happen with a lack of make up air, the fumes stay in the house.  At the least, get a carbon monoxide detector near the furnace RIGHT NOW. Some models use a direct vent system where the intake and exhaust come through one pipe.  The inside pipe does one while the space around it does the other.  In this case make up air is usually not needed.

Response:

Just because I don’t see it you’re way you’re gonna leave?, you must be a very stressed out man. Well, try not to road rage anyone on your way home.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chill out? OK, Chip, whatever you say (this is me packing my tools, walking down your driveway shaking my head and getting in my pick-up truck to drive away) Best of luck Chip, and I do mean it. Rob well, maybe I should have been more clear. I have built 2 walls 10 feet out on each side from the furnace. One of the walls contains 4 25×16x1 furnace filters, so one wall is half filters. The room is by no means closed off to air, Yes I did seal off the other joints except for the door which is not on yet. I have not altered how the furnace vents, I just want to seal around the vent pipe. This mainly to seal out dust, yes I have several dust collectors and filters but dust still gets in. I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air. Let’s all chill out for the moment. I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks First, you should not be doing what you are doing.  The fact that you have done this much without proper knowledge could put your family at risk.  This was not smart. Furnaces have vent requirements.  Check the owners manual.  Some must have 3-4 feet of free space in front or on the sides, others can be located pretty close to a wall.  Each brand has its own requriements. As for make up air, it depends on the furnace and the efficiency. Mine is about 10 years old, 80+, and it gets make up air from the house.  Choking off that air supply could cause all kinds of problems including failure to vent, which could kill everyone in the house potentially.  Yes, there are safety features to prevent this, but I would rather do it right than rely on a feature.  If you do not get a good vent, which could happen with a lack of make up air, the fumes stay in the house.  At the least, get a carbon monoxide detector near the furnace RIGHT NOW. Some models use a direct vent system where the intake and exhaust come through one pipe.  The inside pipe does one while the space around it does the other.  In this case make up air is usually not needed.

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possible editing): I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Ditto the others’ warnings, but perhaps more germane is that (at least my understanding is) the proper way to supply combustion air to a furnace is to bring it in from the outside.  I don’t have a furnace, I have oil-fired boilers, but we ran 6" metal pipe to an outside wall so that combustion air is brought in from the outside so that we don’t exhaust warm house air up the chimney.  I’d expect that to be the proper solution with a gas furnace as well.   This also eliminates the potential for carbon monoxide concentrations when attic fans are run in the summer when the boilers are still supplying hot water.   — Larry

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Nope, not stressed at all actually. My business is (commercial) HVAC, I’m a woodworker,I recently finished a new shop that some consider to be pretty cool and have been known to install the odd residential HVAC system as well. I figure this, as well as a few other attributes allows me a bit of license to insert a cautionary statement when I feel one is necessary. With your original post, and even after your second post, I felt, and feel, that a cautionary note is erring to the wise. Should you choose to bypass my information means naught to me really. You’re a grown-up and can make your own decisions. Doesn’t matter to me one way or the other actually, life (for me) will go on just fine regardless of your decision. As for me "leaving"? I’ve seen enough folk to know that there’s those that wil heed, and those that won’t an it’s not for me to convince you one way or the other. If you don’t consider my words of value, then I’m simply not going to spend time trying to convince you…I have other things to do. so, I really do mean Good luck Chip, I hope it all works out. Road rage? Nope….life’s too short. Rob http://www.robswoodworking.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just because I don’t see it you’re way you’re gonna leave?, you must be a very stressed out man. Well, try not to road rage anyone on your way home. Chill out? OK, Chip, whatever you say (this is me packing my tools, walking down your driveway shaking my head and getting in my pick-up truck to drive away) Best of luck Chip, and I do mean it. Rob well, maybe I should have been more clear. I have built 2 walls 10 feet out on each side from the furnace. One of the walls contains 4 25×16x1 furnace filters, so one wall is half filters. The room is by no means closed off to air, Yes I did seal off the other joints except for the door which is not on yet. I have not altered how the furnace vents, I just want to seal around the vent pipe. This mainly to seal out dust, yes I have several dust collectors and filters but dust still gets in. I’ve quite often seen gas furnaces and waters heaters in closed off rooms with no type of incoming air. Let’s all chill out for the moment. I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks First, you should not be doing what you are doing.  The fact that you have done this much without proper knowledge could put your family at risk.  This was not smart. Furnaces have vent requirements.  Check the owners manual.  Some must have 3-4 feet of free space in front or on the sides, others can be located pretty close to a wall.  Each brand has its own requriements. As for make up air, it depends on the furnace and the efficiency. Mine is about 10 years old, 80+, and it gets make up air from the house.  Choking off that air supply could cause all kinds of problems including failure to vent, which could kill everyone in the house potentially.  Yes, there are safety features to prevent this, but I would rather do it right than rely on a feature.  If you do not get a good vent, which could happen with a lack of make up air, the fumes stay in the house.  At the least, get a carbon monoxide detector near the furnace RIGHT NOW. Some models use a direct vent system where the intake and exhaust come through one pipe.  The inside pipe does one while the space around it does the other.  In this case make up air is usually not needed.

Response:

Just because I don’t see it you’re way you’re gonna leave?, you must be a very stressed out man. Well, try not to road rage anyone on your way home.

You ask for advice, and as soon as someone (actually everyone who answered) tells you what a moron you are you say chill out.  And nobody even used the term moron, we actually were very nice to explain that you could kill yourself and family. I used to work in a plumbing and heating supply house in Chicago.  I remember clueless people coming in looking for parts they didn’t understand, telling me to just give them something that works.  No matter how hard I tried to explain to them that it would cause a fire or explosion, they never seemed to care – saving a buck was more important than their safety. Then, one day, I started asking them for their address.  Confused, they would ask why.  I would reply that when their house exploded, the news would most likely be there to show it on TV, and I wanted to know if it was their house or some other idiots.  That usually got them to listen. Why aren’t you?

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Just had a chat with the furnace guy while he didi the anual maintenance on our burner. Asked about dust and basement shops, and he suggested that (if I put a shop in the basement) I get a little device that draws all the combustion air from outside. said it would be about $200 to $250, installed. Sounds like the simplest most effective way to deal with the whole problem…… –JD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you were to proceed as planned, I believe you would find that you would experience one of the following problems: 1. Furnace would either fail to start or shut down and lock out on the airflow sensor safety switch. 2. Flame rollout sensor would open circuit causing shutdown and requiring service call to replace. Also, Expanding foam could release toxic fumes when heated. You will need to supply additional air from outside.  You do not need to "pump" air into the room.  But you should run a 6" duct from the outside to the front of the furnace by the burner compartment.  You cannot have a negative pressure in the room containing the furnace while the furnace is operating.  Do NOT put expanding foam on the vent pipe.  There should be no need to seal the vent pipe.  As for the pipe being hot, the efficiency rating of the furnace determines the flue gas temperatures. For a non-condensing furnace, the flue gas temperature needs to be 350 deggrees + the combustion air temperature to prevent condensing in the flue pipe/chimney. Hope this is helpful to you. Former HVAC technician

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

Response:

Actually if your furnace room is sealed as you say, the easiest way to bring in combustion air is to simply pipe it into a 5 gallon bucket inside your furnace room.  This prevents a negative pressure (i.e. suck in dust), and at the same time prevents drafts due to cold air intake.  BTW the five gallon pail is simply there to prevent a thermal siphon where your furnace room would fill with sub zero air (if you live in the great white north).  This is a common set up in northern Canada (I reside in Fort McMurray, about 300 miles north of Edmonton, Alberta, it was -25C Friday). Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just had a chat with the furnace guy while he didi the anual maintenance on our burner. Asked about dust and basement shops, and he suggested that (if I put a shop in the basement) I get a little device that draws all the combustion air from outside. said it would be about $200 to $250, installed. Sounds like the simplest most effective way to deal with the whole problem…… –JD If you were to proceed as planned, I believe you would find that you would experience one of the following problems: 1. Furnace would either fail to start or shut down and lock out on the airflow sensor safety switch. 2. Flame rollout sensor would open circuit causing shutdown and requiring service call to replace. Also, Expanding foam could release toxic fumes when heated. You will need to supply additional air from outside.  You do not need to "pump" air into the room.  But you should run a 6" duct from the outside to the front of the furnace by the burner compartment.  You cannot have a negative pressure in the room containing the furnace while the furnace is operating.  Do NOT put expanding foam on the vent pipe.  There should be no need to seal the vent pipe.  As for the pipe being hot, the efficiency rating of the furnace determines the flue gas temperatures. For a non-condensing furnace, the flue gas temperature needs to be 350 deggrees + the combustion air temperature to prevent condensing in the flue pipe/chimney. Hope this is helpful to you. Former HVAC technician I have closed off my gas furnace and sealed all the cracks with expanding foam, door not on yet, and have four 16×25x1 air filters built in to the wall. When I do put the door on will I need to pump combustion air in or will the filters allow enough flow? Also the vent pipe from the furnace goes outside one of the walls, it seems to get very hot, what is safe to put on the outside of the pipe to seal things off? expanding foam? Thanks

  dave.kozlowski.vcf

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Alberta, it was -25C Friday

Only 300 miles north of Edmonton? Do you know Phil and Audrey?

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Question:

Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating systems available. Thanks, Rick Crook

Response:

Hello , and yes I`ve tryed it, head got hoy , feet  were cold cold cold– hope this helps

Response:

Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is selling?

I bought one.  It doesn’t put out enough heat to suit me. I had it installed on an 8.5′ ceiling, and was under the impression it would warm me as long as I stayed in the near vicinity (within a 5′ radius or so) of the unit.  For whatever reason, it just didn’t work very well for me.  To be fair, it might work okay if you really stay in one place (e.g., sitting at a desk or standing at a lathe for hours at a time or something).  I eventually wound up installing a large (10KW) electric space heater to heat my whole shop.  That did the trick!

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For whatever reason, it just didn’t work very well for me.  To be fair, it might work okay if you really stay in one place (e.g., sitting at a desk or standing at a lathe for hours at a time or something).

One other thing, if you want to try one and you don’t like it, Lee Valley would  no doubt take it back.   I don’t want to leave the impression that they don’t stand behind their products.  I just never got around to asking them because I think I can use the unit in a different application. Tim Carver

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Well here in NZ, we are on the way to summer.  I installed a little potbelly stove in the corner of the shop last fall.  Because the roof wasn’t insulated, it was a real bugger to keep heated.  Used a lot of coal, however, I scored some free polystyrene and now I am putting it in the roof. I would have used an electric heater if our power rates were cheaper…but alas, they aren’t.  I have used those quartz type heaters previously and they worked ok if you stayed right in front of them. Hope this helps. Cheers John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating systems available. Thanks, Rick Crook

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I have used one.  It was all right for going out to the shop for a smoke, but it does’nt heat the whole place.  I figured that I would need 4 of them to heat my shop, (19′x22′.)  I just put in a beacon-morris unit heater, 45,000 btu.  Works beautiful.  Now all my tools are warm and cozy. Bairdo.

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Hello , and yes I`ve tryed it, head got hoy , feet  were cold cold cold– hope this helps

Yep, it sure does.   Thanks, Rick

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My head go hoy once too…we were at 7500′ and the jumpmaster said "Get the fuck out!" Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello , and yes I`ve tryed it, head got hoy , feet  were cold cold cold– hope this helps

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Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating systems available. Thanks, Rick Crook

Thanks for all the help.  I will do what you all have done and just put in a large and robust heater. Rick

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This has nothing to do with the type of heat you use, but I find in my shop that I really need to turn on a fan to circulate teh hot air from the ceiling to the floor.  Partly because I have 10′ ceinings, and partly because I am in Saskatchewan, and the outside air temperature is ofen 30 degrees below freezing. Having a fan circulate the heat keeps my hands and feet warm and seems to keep the furnace from kicking in as often. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating systems available. Thanks, Rick Crook

Response:

Rick: The fan aspect that was put out by Mike McGillivray is what I use as well. But, one point: If you have a solid fuels unit (wood/coal/whatever), place the fan so as to draw air – away – from the unit, not blow air upon/over/around it ! Where the cooler air hits the unit/flue-pipe, a – comparative – ‘cool spot’ will result adding in no small part to condensation of creosotes and other combustible deposites on the inside of the flue primarily. This will add to the inevitable flue-fire, etc., if regular cleaning is not done. Buit of course, we, none of us – ever – put off anything that needs tending to ! Do we ?  I know I – never – do ! — (?) I have my wrist high in the air right now because while I have a cheap watch on, it’s the only one I have at this time and it’s getting awfully deep in here at the moment……                                   Just a thought…… xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is "selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now "that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating "systems available. " "Thanks, " "Rick Crook

Response:

I picked up a 4 brick natural gas heater from HD and ran it from the gas going to the waterheater (which is in the garage).  In NC it doesn’t get 30 below but it puts out an amazing amount of heat. Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rick: The fan aspect that was put out by Mike McGillivray is what I use as well. But, one point: If you have a solid fuels unit (wood/coal/whatever), place the fan so as to draw air – away – from the unit, not blow air upon/over/around it ! Where the cooler air hits the unit/flue-pipe, a – comparative – ‘cool spot’ will result adding in no small part to condensation of creosotes and other combustible deposites on the inside of the flue primarily. This will add to the inevitable flue-fire, etc., if regular cleaning is not done. Buit of course, we, none of us – ever – put off anything that needs tending to ! Do we ?  I know I – never – do ! — (?) I have my wrist high in the air right now because while I have a cheap watch on, it’s the only one I have at this time and it’s getting awfully deep in here at the moment……                                   Just a thought…… xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "Has anyone tried the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater that Lee Valley is "selling?  I’ve just got my outbuilding set up as a woodshop and now "that its getting colder I am looking at the different types of heating "systems available. " "Thanks, " "Rick Crook

Response:

Question:

I am needing to replace my water heater (I get a lot of brown water out of it–even after flushing it repeatedly).  I am looking at replacing it with a tankless water heater. Can anyone speak from experience regarding whether a tankless water heater is a good way to go or a bad way to go? C. Todd

Response:

I just looked into this myself; there are a couple manufacturers that make these. If you just shower the $500 model should be OK….The manufacturer says they last twice as long as a normal water heater, but I think they are just talking about the ones with the 6 year warranty. They are supposed to be repairable, so I think when the heat exchange goes bad, you replace the core. Just how much this compares with a new water heater I can’t say. I think if you have a deep tub or Jacuzzi you need to opt for the larger output model which is $1000; but since you can get a 40 gallon 12 year water heater for $250 or less, it might be cheaper to go that way. (especially if you install it yourself). There are of course, energy saving benefits and there might be some tax incentives based on the state you live in. Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am needing to replace my water heater (I get a lot of brown water out of it–even after flushing it repeatedly).  I am looking at replacing it with a tankless water heater. Can anyone speak from experience regarding whether a tankless water heater is a good way to go or a bad way to go? C. Todd

Response:

fp.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just looked into this myself; there are a couple manufacturers that make these. If you just shower the $500 model should be OK….The manufacturer says they last twice as long as a normal water heater, but I think they are just talking about the ones with the 6 year warranty. They are supposed to be repairable, so I think when the heat exchange goes bad, you replace the core. Just how much this compares with a new water heater I can’t say. I think if you have a deep tub or Jacuzzi you need to opt for the larger output model which is $1000; but since you can get a 40 gallon 12 year water heater for $250 or less, it might be cheaper to go that way. (especially if you install it yourself). There are of course, energy saving benefits and there might be some tax incentives based on the state you live in. Charlie I am needing to replace my water heater (I get a lot of brown water out of it–even after flushing it repeatedly).  I am looking at replacing it with a tankless water heater. Can anyone speak from experience regarding whether a tankless water heater is a good way to go or a bad way to go? C. Todd

We installed one after seeing the Bosch at Home Depot..But after doing some research, I discovered that the Bosch was a small one and could only keep up with one shower..So we opted for the $1000.00 model..with three adults showering, laundry ect we were always running out of water..This unit, called a "Takagi" is wonderful..We opted for the optional remote temp control which is really nice..During shower time, we turn it down to 100 degrees..Guess what? No cold water mix, so even if somone flushes, the water stays the same..Then comes time to wash your tidy whities? Turn that sucker up to 167 and really get some washing done..It works perfect every time, and really saves on Gas..No storing a tank of hot water when nobody is home..You only heat what you need..Only b**ch is you have to change the flue pipe as the old one isn’t big enough..We did the whole thing ourselves in one afternoon… John

Response:

Thanks for the responses. C. Todd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fp.aol.com… I just looked into this myself; there are a couple manufacturers that make these. If you just shower the $500 model should be OK….The manufacturer says they last twice as long as a normal water heater, but I think they are just talking about the ones with the 6 year warranty. They are supposed to be repairable, so I think when the heat exchange goes bad, you replace the core. Just how much this compares with a new water heater I can’t say. I think if you have a deep tub or Jacuzzi you need to opt for the larger output model which is $1000; but since you can get a 40 gallon 12 year water heater for $250 or less, it might be cheaper to go that way. (especially if you install it yourself). There are of course, energy saving benefits and there might be some tax incentives based on the state you live in. Charlie I am needing to replace my water heater (I get a lot of brown water out of it–even after flushing it repeatedly).  I am looking at replacing it with a tankless water heater. Can anyone speak from experience regarding whether a tankless water heater is a good way to go or a bad way to go? C. Todd We installed one after seeing the Bosch at Home Depot..But after doing some research, I discovered that the Bosch was a small one and could only keep up with one shower..So we opted for the $1000.00 model..with three adults showering, laundry ect we were always running out of water..This unit, called a "Takagi" is wonderful..We opted for the optional remote temp control which is really nice..During shower time, we turn it down to 100 degrees..Guess what? No cold water mix, so even if somone flushes, the water stays the same..Then comes time to wash your tidy whities? Turn that sucker up to 167 and really get some washing done..It works perfect every time, and really saves on Gas..No storing a tank of hot water when nobody is home..You only heat what you need..Only b**ch is you have to change the flue pipe as the old one isn’t big enough..We did the whole thing ourselves in one afternoon… John

Response:

Question:

Have a propane water heater in a mobile home.  Worked good for 4 years, then pilot went out.  Changed thermocouple.  Pilot kept going out.  Had repairman over.  Replaced the pilot tube, because there was a big hole in it, causing sooting.  Also cleaned the flue.  The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight. The Burner and orifice was cleaned twice.  The repairmen are stumped.  They even called the water heater manufacturer…and they didn’t know. Wondering if anyone could give some advice….

Response:

Thats sounds like a vent problem or the air fuel mixture aint right.Yellow flames are a sign  of carbon monoxide which can KILL YOU.

Nah! Yellow flames are not necessarily a sign of CO. Ventless fireplace inserts have pleanty of yellow flames but (usually) don’t give up a trace of CO. When you have a free and open flame, the CO that is produced in the process of burning reacts with the O2 in the air and there is no safety problem. The CO comes about when the flame doesn’t have extra O2 coming at it. Pilot lights are almost never operated this way.

Response:

Have a propane water heater in a mobile home.  Worked good for 4 years, then pilot went out.  Changed thermocouple.  Pilot kept going out.  Had repairman over.  Replaced the pilot tube, because there was a big hole in it, causing sooting.  Also cleaned the flue.  The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight. The Burner and orifice was cleaned twice.  The repairmen are stumped.  They even called the water heater manufacturer…and they didn’t know. Wondering if anyone could give some advice….

Also, is it possible that you have another source of air outflow that could be causing a backdraft? For example, a window fan blowing out, an attic fan (unlikely), insuficient chimney height, wind across open windows. I don’t think these things are the cause, but check the draft at the opening near the top of the heater as it enters the flue pipe. See if the flame  of a match is readily drawn in when held near the opening. If not, there’s the problem.

Response:

  There are two kinds of yellow flame, both of which are said by some to be orangish.   One kind resembles a wood flame or a candle flame and is due to insufficient air being sucked into the air intakes that are between the orifice and the burner, and very near the orifice.  To see this effect, try temporarily and briefly closing down the air intake(s) if adjustable and blocking/covering it/them with something if not adjustable.  Only briefly just long enough to see the effect!   The other kind is sodium flame coloration.  Blow a little pinch of baking soda or dry and powdery finely pulverized salt into the burner.   Anyone tinkering with a gas burner or worrying about yellow or yellow-orange flames in one recently serviced by a professional should try these and know the difference.   Sodium flame coloration is harmless.  It may indicate something as harmless as a recent disturbance in dust somewhere or a salty sea breeze. Sodium concentrations as low as a few billionths of a gram per cubic foot of air can make flames orangish or orange-yellowish.   Flames taking on a yellowish color or orange-yellowish color due to insufficient air are another story.  You have inefficiency, a somewhat probable carbon monoxide problem and a possible soot accumulation problem.   Pilot lights in some gas appliances can have the non-sodium form of yellow when working as planned.  One good sign for a pilot light is the yellow portion of the flame being surrounded by blue – this means that carbon monoxide is being burnt.  And pilot lights generally have the benefit of chimneys sucking up enough of their exhaust that they won’t gas up your home with CO.   But if the main burner flame takes on such a non-sodium yellow color, this is probably another story.  Chances are you either have an air or exhaust obstruction somewhere or the air intakes are out of adjustment. Do not rely on adjusting an air intake unless you know both what the flame should look like in your appliance when adjusted properly (there are subtle shades of gas flame blue even as well as aspects of flame behaviour!) and that you have no air nor exhaust obstruction problems anywhere.  Do not rely on minimum air intake into a burner that results on a flame being completely blue being the proper amount of air intake.  Nor using welding torch knowledge to achieve a "neutral flame" – the appliance may only ignite reliably (may require richer than "neutral") or burn adequately free of CO (may require leaner since a "neutral" flame largely only oxidizes to CO with pre-mixed air) with something other than a neutral flame, and natural gas is different from acetylene and propane in appearance of a richer-than-neutral flame. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have a propane water heater in a mobile home.  Worked good for 4 years, then pilot went out.  Changed thermocouple.  Pilot kept going out.  Had repairman over.  Replaced the pilot tube, because there was a big hole in it, causing sooting.  Also cleaned the flue.  The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight. The Burner and orifice was cleaned twice.  The repairmen are stumped.  They even called the water heater manufacturer…and they didn’t know. Wondering if anyone could give some advice…. Also, is it possible that you have another source of air outflow that could be causing a backdraft? For example, a window fan blowing out, an attic fan (unlikely), insuficient chimney height, wind across open windows. I don’t think these things are the cause, but check the draft at the opening near the top of the heater as it enters the flue pipe. See if the flame  of a match is readily drawn in when held near the opening. If not, there’s the problem.

Response:

The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight.

Thats sounds like a vent problem or the air fuel mixture aint right.Yellow flames are a sign  of carbon monoxide which can KILL YOU. "I dont know why i come here,but i know i’ll never leave, it’s the only place i wanna be."

Response:

Yellow flame is a sign of too much gas for the amount of oxygen it is getting, why, I don’t think anyone here can tell you without seeing what the set up is. Surely the service man knows how to adjust the air to the burner. Of course in cleaning the orifice, he may have made it too big, reamed it out, so there is too much gas flow for the limits on air adjustment to handle. He should have a set of gages to fit the number of orifice, number of orifice should be stamped on orifice. Walt Conner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..

Response:

Ok..hold on… Is the flame the same size it was before, only yellow? Does it have any blue in it at all? Is it yellow, with flecks of other colors from time to time? If so..its VERY possible that you stirred up a ton of dust…and thats what you see… If not..you have a mixture issue, and it does indeed need to be addressed. For the record, if he used a chemical to clean the soot out, and there is ANY residue in the pipe….you can be seeing the atoms in the chemical formula being excited as they heat up…we use a sodium spray for finding the hard to locate heat exchanger cracks, and it burns with a yellow/orange flame. I have cleaned heat exchangers and burners and had it take up to 15 minutes to get the flame back to a nice blue after refire. If its not back to blue in say…..an hour..you have other problems.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have a propane water heater in a mobile home.  Worked good for 4 years, then pilot went out.  Changed thermocouple.  Pilot kept going out.  Had repairman over.  Replaced the pilot tube, because there was a big hole in it, causing sooting.  Also cleaned the flue.  The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight. The Burner and orifice was cleaned twice.  The repairmen are stumped.  They even called the water heater manufacturer…and they didn’t know. Wondering if anyone could give some advice….

Response:

Have a propane water heater in a mobile home.  Worked good for 4 years, then pilot went out.  Changed thermocouple.  Pilot kept going out.  Had repairman over.  Replaced the pilot tube, because there was a big hole in it, causing sooting.  Also cleaned the flue.  The mystery is that the pilot and burner flame is yellow.  We have checked everything..Manifold pressure is holding steady, no obstructions in our direct vent system, the seal is nice and tight. The Burner and orifice was cleaned twice.  The repairmen are stumped.  They even called the water heater manufacturer…and they didn’t know. Wondering if anyone could give some advice….

Air to fuel ratio sounds like the problem.  If adjusting this ratio does not solve the problem, did he, by chance, ream out the orifice or change it?  If so, the opening may be too large.  Also, if he changed it, did he mistakenly replace it with an orifice for natural gas instead of propane?   Just a few thoughts. Don

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Question:

Hi guys This is my first post but hopefully not my last.  Years ago in the late 70’s I was young and excited about solar.  I devised a parabolic mirror with a collecting tube arrangement and then "invented" a sun tracker to focus the rays.  It was a bit of a noisy contraption to say the least (solenoid driven)and I later learned that my "invention" was a standard "bird dog" tracker all ready in use.  But this was the days before the internet.  I gave up on solar because with my early innocent approach I could not afford to keep experimenting. the facts of the large square footage required for collectors cost too much to be practical.    Now solar heating has resurfaced with me again.  The problem is I have a friend who has moved to north Georgia and would like to "experiment" with commercial green house growing.  As I calculated it out the cost of fuel has "reared its ugly head again".  One site mentioned lp gas heater that could run for 20-30 hours on 20 lb. Thats bankruptcy from the beginning. but trpical fuel costs.   So I started thinking about it again. small 12 by 20 to 15 by 30 double walled 4 mil poly quanset type greenhouse.  Dig a 4 by 4 by 10 or 12 concrete resevior under the structure foam and concrete lining with a P.T. plywood and foam insulated top.  Lotta work but no problem and still cheap enough.   Then the collector array problem again.  Probably cost more than the entire greenhouse.  Thats when I started remembering I started with old spent fluorescent tubes.  I was aware of the mercury hazard back in the 70’s but cold water abates any danger of that and can be contained and disposed of.  I also had tried various flat black coatings and evacuation of air in the tubes, different header arrangements etc.    So here’s what after thinking about it I came up with.  Spent flouresent tubes provide a free glazing anyone can afford. The collector tubes could range from copper to galvanized electrical conduit or even plastic.  My local steel scrap recycler can provide me with galv/steel collector tubing for almost free.    The sealant for evacuation of the air is still a problem. Everything points the the more complex double tube one inlet method to avoid expansion problems.  (flouresent tube glass cannot take much strain).    And the most interesting of all.  The standard foil tape that is used in heating and air work could be used to cover the back side of the tube to give you a high efficency. (not commonly availble years ago). SO THE PLAN IN SYNOPSIS    Arrange the glass tubes in wood frames with a brazed header supplying pumped water.  Space the collectors tightly 1/8 in apart and cover the back of the tube with standard (peel away) HVAC contractors foil tape.  That beats all other plans best I can tell on cost/efficency…(of course cost being almost nil) and efficency possibilitys well over 60-65%    I realize this is not a new idea and I have read a few posts on the forum involving this.  My guess it is being used now but I was hoping for a few pointers that could save me time and avoid some of the simpler mistakes.    If any of you have actually tried any of these methods I would appreciate your help. OR if you have a suggestion involving this collector type let me know and if time allows I will experiment with it.  I need to do this fairly quickly and experimenting will be limited to the best option based on early or possibly inconclusive results.  Better to try something than do nothing at all. bob

Response:

Thanks Anthony.    You are getting me thinking again.  I plan to meet my friend next week in the mountains. And toss out a few proposals.  Meanwhile he has been talking with local nursery growers and considering plants they would be interested in being wholesaled to them.  Thats his thing and as you can probably tell the idea of experimenting again in solar is mine.  I may be overcompensating but I have been up there and the mountains in the winter.  The whole place looks like it is surrounded in fog for weeks or even months at a time.  This is going to be a challenge.    One plan I have is to move an old converted boiler we found on the property into the center of the greenhouse.  The previous owner had a welder put in a fire door and an ash dump on it with a flue pipe.  It was planed for an outbuilding but will definately provide heat if the solar fails.  Were using it now for a trash incenerator and it draws exceptionally well producing tons of heat.   The use of 55 gal drums for storage is a great labor saving idea. Much less complex than an underground concrete one.  I also considered clear poly with black poly inside and a fan as some sort of collector.  My research shows that air as a conductive medium is inefficent and difficult to store the heat generated.  (several tons of large stone) The bubble thing sounds too expensive considering the entire 4 mill poly thing is only 2-3 years at best then its replaced. (actually might only be 1 rough climate)    I haven’t really done any of the math yet.  Primarily because I cannot find any figures on 4 mill heat loss whether single or double layer and my friend and I need to decide on a greenhouse size to start.   Thats where the drum idea is starting to make sense.  Easy to add onto and even if we end up adding another row of greenhouses we could tie it together without much work. Thanks for your insight bob

Response:

You may want to back off on the useof flourescent tubes… The coating inside the tubes is poisonous. Besides, they’re awfully fragile. Find some plastic instead.

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And they contain mercury, vapor and possibly small amount of liquid phase… Nasty stuff to be breathing or handling! …gm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You may want to back off on the useof flourescent tubes… The coating inside the tubes is poisonous. Besides, they’re awfully fragile. Find some plastic instead.

Response:

Re solar heating greenhouses with fluorescent tubes: This definitely calls for a top post. I agree with the idea of solar greenhouse heating, I tihnk its quite do-able. But your specific methid of doing it is remarkably complex. So here’s a far simpler quicker one that will give you what you want and more… A _large_ reflector, either flat or semi parabolic, reflects light into the greenhouse. For heat storage you have a big barrel of water, and the light can be arranged to shine onto that. You also have metal rods in the concrete floor to assist the concrete in storing. And you have some form of tracker. Now that is vastly simpler and will trap tons of heat. It will also give plants much more light in the winter. Far more practical methinks. Regards, NT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – have a friend who has moved to north Georgia and would like to "experiment" with commercial green house growing.  As I calculated it out the cost of fuel has "reared its ugly head again".  One site mentioned lp gas heater that could run for 20-30 hours on 20 lb. Thats bankruptcy from the beginning. but trpical fuel costs. SO THE PLAN IN SYNOPSIS    Arrange the glass tubes in wood frames with a brazed header supplying pumped water.  Space the collectors tightly 1/8 in apart and cover the back of the tube with standard (peel away) HVAC contractors foil tape.  That beats all other plans best I can tell on cost/efficency…(of course cost being almost nil) and efficency possibilitys well over 60-65%

Response:

A _large_ reflector, either flat or semi parabolic, reflects light into the greenhouse. For heat storage you have a big barrel of water, and the light can be arranged to shine onto that. You also have metal rods in the concrete floor to assist the concrete in storing. And you have some form of tracker.

This might work best with a greenhouse with a north-south orientation and a tank at the north end, so there’s lots of room for outdoor mirrors and their light beams don’t destroy the plants in the greenhouse. If (a big if) we can somehow remove humidity other than blowing cold dry outdoor air in one end and warm moist indoor air out the other, a 30′x100′ semicylindrical greenhouse with 2 layers of poly film and an airspace would have a conductance of about 5400ft^2/R1.8 = 3010 Btu/h-F (enormous), so it would need 24h(70-30)3010 = 2.9 million Btu/day in January in Phila. On an average day, the south wall collects 0.8×15x100×1000 = 1.2 million Btu and 0.8×30x100×620 = 1.5 million arrive through the roof. Let’s ignore the problem of storing that heat. This leaves 200K Btu/day. NREL says a 2-axis tracker can collect at most 4 kWh/m^2 (1268 Btu/ft^2) on an average Jan day in Phila, so we might have 200K/1268/0.9/0.8 = 220 ft^2 of heliostats (eg 4 8′x8′ versions) with 90% reflectance. Now the tank. The greenhouse needs 5×2.9 = 14.5 million Btu for 5 cloudy 30 F days in a row. That might come from 14.5×10^6/(130-80) = 290K pounds or 36K gallons or 4500 ft^2 of water cooling from 130 to 80 F, eg an 8′ tall x 27′ diameter tank, but that won’t fit into the greenhouse… Nick

Response:

A _large_ reflector, either flat or semi parabolic, reflects light into the greenhouse. For heat storage you have a big barrel of water, and the light can be arranged to shine onto that. You also have metal rods in the concrete floor to assist the concrete in storing. And you have some form of tracker. Now the tank. The greenhouse needs 5×2.9 = 14.5 million Btu for 5 cloudy 30 F days in a row. That might come from 14.5×10^6/(130-80) = 290K pounds or 36K gallons or 4500 ft^2 of water cooling from 130 to 80 F, eg an 8′ tall x 27′ diameter tank, but that won’t fit into the greenhouse…

So one goes for 1 day heat storage, with the possibility of needing backup heat at times. Practical? It would at least knock out most of your fossil heating requirement. Regards, NT

Response:

Hi guys

Well this discussion has gotten me to reconsider building a truly active (motorized bird dog tracker style) solar/geothermal heating system.  It looks like the storage/square footage requirements are a bit steep for an active (water recirculating) but non tracking system.  Every time I consider the square footage the material costs keep getting in the way.  As a prelimiary estimate I calculated something around 43,500 to 60,000 btu primarily due to double poly glazing having no real R value.  It just keeps the wind out.  The whole thing is kind of like trying to heat your outside deck or patio when its 10 degrees out.   In the meantime I started construction on the greenhouse itself. I have to start with that anyway.   The structure was a bit of a challenge since it involved building a quanset type frame out of laminated wood.  A glueing/laminating jig had to be built and the scrap PT lumber ripped with a table saw and glued into place.  It was a bit of a novel idea but I was pleased to see it take shape in the physical form exactly as planned.  Now, if I can be so lucky with the solar plans.    I shall keep you guys posted as this thing starts to take shape. Thanks for the creative ideas and keep them coming.  I am taking pictures and hope to be able to publish them after completion at a website. bob PS: Anyone who has expertise with Dallas Semiconductor thermal sensors and related products and the programming required let me know.  They seem to be an extremely inexpensive solution for recording temperature and possibly controlling it as well, digitally with a PC.

Response:

PS: Anyone who has expertise with Dallas Semiconductor thermal sensors and related products and the programming required let me know.  They

They are lots of fun.  :) Start with the "weather station kit" formerlly sold by DalSemi but now available from AAG in mexico. sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format  *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime:  ISBN:0-226-49363-6  *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be  sdbUse1  and host is  at  bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!

Response:

Question:

I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cliff

Response:

Packing wood (not prepackaged pellets, that is somewhat different)  or coal through the  house to the stove and bringing the ash back out is a messy deal.  Coal is no more or less messy than wood. Sure, you can burn wood in this stove, providing it is in good working order.  Have you checked the chimney yet? Coal has about twice the BTU/lb than wood, ,,, you can figure the rest from there. Do you have a supply for household coal in your area?  typically harder to come by than wood.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cliff

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There are two types of coal, bituminous and anthracite. Bituminous is soft coal, is easily ignited and burns quickly with a high degree of soot. It is a relatively fast fire and is very dirty. Anthracite (hard coal) is harder to ignite, burns slower and is much cleaner. In many localities you are not allowed to burn soft coal. Most coal that you burn in the home is anthracite. Anthracite is a bit tricky to get burning. You normally build a fire with a good amount of kindling, and then slowly add small amounts of coal on top. If you do it right, the coal will start to burn and you can add a bit more at a time until you have a god pile of glowing coal. Anthracite does not produce much of a flame or even much smoke. It merely glows and throws off a considerable amount of heat as it does. It might take you an hour to get a good coal fire burning. It’s not something that you want to do every night. To contrast an anthracite fire with a wood fire, it burns slower, a little cooler, and more evenly than a similar sized wood fire. Wood can burn well on a flat surface with air circulating over the top. Coal likes to have air circulate from the bottom up through the coals. A grate is necessary in a coal stove to allow the air to flow from the bottom, and also allows you to shake down the ashes without waiting for the fire to go out. Because it’s harder to start, burns longer and more evenly, you normally start up a coal fire in the late fall and then try and keep it going all winter. Once you have hot coals, you simply shake down the ashes through the ash grate, and add more coal. Coal lights coal easier than wood lights coal. You can expect to easily get 20 hour or more burn times with coal. With the dampers throttled back to a minimum I’ve been able to keep a coal fire burning for more than a week without a refill. That’s just not possible with wood. A typical schedule for coal would be to shake-down the ash and add coal once per day. Once you get the damper set you will probably never have to reset it for the rest of the season. You probably need a hydrostatic damper for coal to prevent the stove from "puffing".  (that’s an opening on the flue pipe with a free swinging damper door) Coal does not produce creosote in the chimney like wood does. Assuming that you chimney is free of soot in the first place, you never have to worry that you coal fire is creating more. With a wood stove, you need to worry about creosote build up, have the chimney cleaned at least once a year. You also have to be careful to select well seasoned (dried) wood to prevent creosote build up in the chimney which can be very dangerous. A wood fire will produce a lot of heat in a short period of time. It’s easy to start and produces entertaining flames and a strong (sometimes pleasant) aroma. It is difficult to keep a wood fire burning all night, so you may wake up to a cold house. You end up adjusting the dampers frequently, and may have to refill it one or more times per day. To get a full burn you need to have an airtight stove and close the dampers to slow the burn. The more you slow the burn, the more creosote build up you may have. You can often get wood for free, by investing some sweat. Not many places to pick up coal for free unless you live in PA near an old strip mine. You might think that coal is dirtier than wood, but it is not. You need to bring in wood each night unless you have a large inside storage area. Coal takes up less space. Wood contains insects, and you will find yourself picking up lots of little wood chips, sawdust and scraps. Each time you light the stove, you will get whiffs of smoke in the house. There is a small amount of black coal dust, but it’s relatively easy to manage if you are careful in handling (dumping coal from one container to the next) Wood produces more smoke than coal. Coal smoke does not smell as pleasant as wood, but you smell it less frequently. You get some sulfur smell when the stove is first loaded, but it disappears soon after the bulk of the coal gets burning. I could smell every wood stove in the neighborhood all day and night. I could only smell my coal stove after it had been loaded for perhaps 20 minutes. Coal is substantially cheaper if you buy it in bulk (loose by the ton). To do so it helps to have a coal bin near the stove that can also be accessed by the truck. You can buy coal in bags if you don’t have a bin or a place to have a truck dump it, but you pay a premium for bagged coal. It is also nice to have a place close to the stove where you can safely dump the ash. Coal never rots or attracts insects. You can store it indoors or outdoors indefinitely. It’s already many millions of years old, so it does not go bad with time. I consider coal to be a big step up from wood in terms of convenience and comfort if you are using either to substantially heat your home. It’s too much trouble for quick one night fires because it’s hard to get started. Wood is better for those fast romantic fires, but coal is more practical because it produces more even heat that you can easily keep running all winter..What works for you will depend on what is available and how you plan to use your stove. I’d suggest you buy a dozen or so bags of coal and give it a try. Even if you don’t end up using it a lot, it is a nice backup for those emergency furnace outages or even for the coldest months of winter. I switched my main source of heat to oil from coal a few years back. It costs about the same as coal and there is nothing like the convenience of a thermostat and automatic oil delivery. Still, I keep a weeks worth of coal in the basement for those occasional ice storms than can knock out the electric (and the boiler) for a week. Vermont Castings makes one of the best stoves. They work well for either coal or wood when properly equipped. Just my $.02.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cliff

Response:

Be careful burning wood in a coal stove.  Wood fires can get a lot hotter than coal and that could cause some problems with near by combustibles like your walls or ceiling.  Generally speaking it is not the stove proper that is the problem but the flue and chimney that can’t "take the heat".  There is a good web site that deals with chimneys.  It is something like chimney.org. OBTW coal is not a green fuel and wood is. Bill Roosa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cliff

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This is alt,energy.homepower…. where anything goes.  Your comment fits better in alt.energy.renewable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OBTW coal is not a green fuel and wood is. Bill Roosa

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Great post Bughunter. I switched my main source of heat to oil from coal a few years back. It costs about the same as coal and there is nothing like the convenience of a thermostat and automatic oil delivery. Still, I keep a weeks worth of coal in the basement for those occasional ice storms than can knock out the electric (and the boiler) for a week.

I can understand why you switched to oil. For the convenience at the same cost.   OTOH,  I know a  recent retiree that is contemplating ripping out his perfectly good semi-automatic auger wood pellet stove to put in a corn auger stove because he needs to be fiddling and putzing around with something.   He has figured out how to operate the pellet stove I guess. Part of the putzing is doing the research of the new stove and fuel source, shopping for the new stove, installation of the new stove and then fiddling around with the feed and air rate.   Let us not  forget that he has something  new to talk about with his other cronies down at the coffee shop. This should keep him occupied for a couple years or so.  <grin  So let us not forget the entertainment  putz factor for all  types of stoves.

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OBTW coal is not a green fuel and wood is. Bill Roosa

If wood is a green fuel, then it’s pretty near at the bottom of the "green" barrel. It’s renewable, but it is hardly free of pollution or environmental impact. Have you ever tried to breathe the cold fresh winter morning air in a neighborhood where everybody has been burning their airtight wood stoves all night? It’s bad enough to make you want to encourage "more nukes". I suppose that the pellet stoves are quite a bit better, but then you have some local noise pollution from their fans. The newly mandated catalytic units on wood stoves help to reduce the air pollution, but they don’t eliminate it. And, if you have every lived where they mine coal you know that it can have some nasty earth transforming consequences. I’m not trying to start a debate, but I might say that there are many shades of green.

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I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

We’ve been burning wood in that model for 20 years. No grate is needed for wood; assuming you have the front duct insert that channels the air from the back thermostat flap. Back when the EPA begin mandating woodstove catalytic converters, the combination wood/coal stoves were exempt because of poisoning problems, and some manufacturers (not to say Vermont Castings) added a coal option to what were basically stoves optimized for wood. If you’re new to woodstoves make sure all the seals are airtight so you can close the doors to smother the fire when things get out of hand. And have an expert inspect your chimney. IMO coal would make sense mostly for heating runs of a few days or more. With wood you get heat faster on a cold start, and it’s easier to make a short hot fire for cooking. Coal is probably cleaner but smellier.

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BTW, at one point in time the "vigilant’ by VT castings was called a wood/coal stove. They may have changed the designation over the years.

There are wood/coal vigilants – however, there are also wood only vigilants (they have no grate).

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 "Cliff" <wrote I just bought a house that came with a Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove. On the inside it says 1977. I have never used a wood or coal stove before. It seems that coal would be a little messy. Does anybody know if I can or should burn wood in this stove. What are the advantages of using coal vs. wood? I looked around the Internet for a manual but didn’t find anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Cliff

In my youth, I had to tend the coal fired furnace, filling the stoker, and regularly cleaning out the clinkers and fly ash. Coal burns hotter than wood, and has a higher ignition temperature. It can be difficult to start burning, but once going it is easy to regulate. Coal produces much less tar and creosote than wood, if you use wood in the stove, make sure the chimney is swept regularly, at least once a year. Coal takes up much less space for the amount of heat produced – an advantage if you are short on space. Cost of coal may be more or less than wood, depending on the local supply of firewood and coal. Both coal and wood are messy, but in different ways. Coal has dust, wood has organic debris and sap. Both have ashes that need to be disposed of. CM

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Be careful burning wood in a coal stove.  Wood fires can get a lot hotter than coal

<snip ummm I think you have that backwards, I do a lot of blacksmithing and coal is a far hotter fire then wood.

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You do not get much creosote buildup if you are getting complete combustion. Complete combustion will create a hot fire. Most build up problems occur when you burning "green" (wet) wood or you are starving the fire for air in an airtight stove. People throttle back the air to achieve longer (overnight) burns, and that is a major cause of problems. The temperature of your chimney and the outside air is also an influence. A colder chimney will collect more creosote. Higher humidity also contributes to build-up. Some species of wood (especially softwoods like pine) produce more creosote than others. It’s best to avoid soft woods in an airtight stove. When burning wood, I always tried to keep a relatively hot fire and only burnt well seasoned hardwoods. I never had much of a problem with creosote build up in the chimney.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Coal produces much less tar and creosote than wood, if you use wood in the stove, make sure the chimney is swept regularly, at least once a year. I’ve used wood for about 10 years, and sweep the chimney once a year. All I ever see in the chimney is a dry white ash, no sign of creosote. It’s  a double wall, steel, insulated chimney located inside the house, except for the 2 feet above the roof. Perhaps the creosote does not precipitate if the chimney is hot enough –georges remove one to respond

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Impossible as it may seem, I think you guys are both right. It’s a semantics thing the word "hot". Dry wood burns faster than coal and is able to flare up and change it’s intensity faster then with coal. Wood will produce smoke, which can also ignite. So, you can get a very quick burn, and a "flash" of high heat. A lot of the heat of a fast burning wood fire goes up the chimney as the smoke and flue gases ignite. That’s also one of the things that can cause the creosote build-up in the chimney to ignite. There is less smoke with coal, and the heat being generated is more localized to the pile coal than to flue gases. So, you get more heat in the combustion chamber and less up the chimney. Coal has more BTU content than wood. It therefore has a potential to get a whole lot hotter if you add more air to the combustion chamber. In you blacksmithing work, I’ll bet that you force air into the coals periodically to increase the heat. Once it’s hot, it stays hot for a while before it cools back to the normal combustion rate with non-forced air flow. I have a thermometer on my stove pipe. When I burn wood, it is no problem to get the flue pipe to +600 degrees with a fast burning wood fire. This can take a matter of minutes with kindling. But a coal fire must really be cranking to get a 400 degree stack temperature. Still, the stove itself is hotter with coal than wood. I made a mistake and left the ash clean-out door open one time with a coal fire. My chimney has a very strong draft, and when I came back to the stove an hour or so later, the whole cast iron stove was glowing cherry red, and the flue thermometer was pegged at 700 degrees. A 1" thick cast iron slab on the top of the firebox was melting. It sagged 3". Wood is a "flash in the pan" compared to coal. Force a little air into it and you can make smelt your own steel!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Be careful burning wood in a coal stove.  Wood fires can get a lot hotter than coal <snip ummm I think you have that backwards, I do a lot of blacksmithing and coal is a far hotter fire then wood.

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You are right codeman I only mentioned it in passing Seems that when wood rots in the forest it gives off CO2.  When it burns in a wood stove it gives off the exact same amount of CO2.  Course that is the wood stove manufacture’s story.  We all know that CO and NOx are not produced with rotting wood and are with a wood stove. Green but just bearly.  Price is right though! Bill Roosa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OBTW coal is not a green fuel and wood is. Bill Roosa If wood is a green fuel, then it’s pretty near at the bottom of the "green" barrel. It’s renewable, but it is hardly free of pollution or environmental impact. Have you ever tried to breathe the cold fresh winter morning air in a neighborhood where everybody has been burning their airtight wood stoves all night? It’s bad enough to make you want to encourage "more nukes". I suppose that the pellet stoves are quite a bit better, but then you have some local noise pollution from their fans. The newly mandated catalytic units on wood stoves help to reduce the air pollution, but they don’t eliminate it. And, if you have every lived where they mine coal you know that it can have some nasty earth transforming consequences. I’m not trying to start a debate, but I might say that there are many shades of green.

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Pardon me for crashing in. I agree that the way a (typical wood-burning) stove is run usually limits how cleanly it burns, moreso than the design of the stove. And most people damp them down to try to get through the night on a smouldering mess. Catalytic converters, apparently, really help. I read recently that the cat converters in cars actually add some other wierd pollution to the atmosphere; dunno if the same applies for wood stove use. Far as I’ve been able to tell, masonry stoves are as near to perfection as one can get, in terms of extracting maximum benefit from a renewable resource. Lowest pollution levels, too. A big masonry stove, however, seems to be considered strange and mysterious technology in most of North America. I’m still waiting to trip over enough dough to build a house and work a masonry stove into the design. They can be tricky to retrofit, and in my current situation I just don’t think it’s possible. In the meantime I run the iron maiden as cleanly as I can. -=s

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are right codeman I only mentioned it in passing Seems that when wood rots in the forest it gives off CO2.  When it burns in a wood stove it gives off the exact same amount of CO2.  Course that is the wood stove manufacture’s story.  We all know that CO and NOx are not produced with rotting wood and are with a wood stove. Green but just bearly.  Price is right though! Bill Roosa OBTW coal is not a green fuel and wood is. Bill Roosa If wood is a green fuel, then it’s pretty near at the bottom of the "green" barrel. It’s renewable, but it is hardly free of pollution or environmental impact. Have you ever tried to breathe the cold fresh winter morning air in a neighborhood where everybody has been burning their airtight wood stoves all night? It’s bad enough to make you want to encourage "more nukes". I suppose that the pellet stoves are quite a bit better, but then you have some local noise pollution from their fans. The newly mandated catalytic units on wood stoves help to reduce the air pollution, but they don’t eliminate it. And, if you have every lived where they mine coal you know that it can have some nasty earth transforming consequences. I’m not trying to start a debate, but I might say that there are many shades of green.

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Question:

We have a nice and pretty big fireplace in our home, but were recently told that there is a crack in the chimney that will be hard to sleeve because of the angle inside. It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA

I was looking into a gas fireplace too.  Karen and I visited a fireplace shop in Staten Island last week and I was very impressed with the Heat ‘n Glo models with the gas jets in the logs and a "glowing embers" kit.  They’re pricey ($2k+) but produced quite a bit of heat. http://www.heatnglo.com/ Direct-vented gas fireplaces (where combusion air is also drawn from the outside) are something like 75% efficient.  Natural gas will be cheaper to operate than LP.   Steve Manes, Brooklyn, USA www.magpie.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a nice and pretty big fireplace in our home, but were recently told that there is a crack in the chimney that will be hard to sleeve because of the angle inside. It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA I was looking into a gas fireplace too.  Karen and I visited a fireplace shop in Staten Island last week and I was very impressed with the Heat ‘n Glo models with the gas jets in the logs and a "glowing embers" kit.  They’re pricey ($2k+) but produced quite a bit of heat. http://www.heatnglo.com/ Direct-vented gas fireplaces (where combusion air is also drawn from the outside) are something like 75% efficient.  Natural gas will be cheaper to operate than LP.

Hi, Only thing is LP has more BTU. But if the house has gas line in already, why bother with LP? In cold weather LP can freeze(winter grade has more Butane to prevent freezing). I have two direct vent natural gas FPs with variable speed fan and remote. Will never go back to wood buring FP. Even my cabin has gas FP now. No cleaning, no mess, higher efficiency. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve Manes, Brooklyn, USA www.magpie.com

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If smoke can come out of this crack, so can gas fumes.  You should have the chimney repaired, then choose the fuel to use.  If the chimney was not smoke tested, get another sweep.  Look here for ones that are certified, http://www.csia.org.  Gas logs are not a cure for an unsafe chimney, sorry. — John Galbreath Jr. http://www.FireLogs.com Birmingham, Alabama 888.321.Logs

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a nice and pretty big fireplace in our home, but were recently told that there is a crack in the chimney that will be hard to sleeve because of the angle inside. It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA

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If your anywhere near western NJ and your looking for a zero clearence fireplace, the place to go is Wood Heat in Quakerstown Pa.  I bought a medium sized Heat-N-Glo and an OMC Regal 2 outdoor grill.  They instaled the fireplace all for $3,600  They undersold all around easily…

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I’d vote for natural gas over propane, particularly if you have a basement since propane is heavier than air as I recall and will tend to collect below (a potential fire/explosion hazard).  Natural gas is lighter and will rise and usually dissipate easier.

Hm. Your density argument in favor of natural gas is a pretty good one. I can think of several related arguments. First additional argument is the relative flammabilities. Natural gas apparently requires a volume concentration of at least 5.3% in air in order for the mixture to become flammable. But propane only requires a volume concentration of 2.1% in air before striking a match becomes a really bad idea. (I use volume concentration on purpose. In terms of weight concentration, the numbers become almost equal since propane gas is so much more dense than natural gas. But for leaks I think it’s more fair to use the volume concentration.) Second argument is about explosivity, i.e., how -quick- that POOF could be, when it happens. How hard it is to blow the walls out. I tried to find some figures on the net for the relative explosivities, but I was not able to find any. Finally, third argument is how fast the leaks might be. Forgive my ignorance, but in households installations, do propane and natural gas usually run at similar, or different, pipe pressures? Garry

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If smoke can come out of this crack, so can gas fumes.  You should have the chimney repaired, then choose the fuel to use.  If the chimney was not smoke tested, get another sweep.  Look here for ones that are certified, http://www.csia.org.  Gas logs are not a cure for an unsafe chimney, sorry.

Direct vent gas fireplaces require a double channel flue pipe insert, one of them to bring combustion air into the fireplace.  The direct vent fireplaces are sealed units so they can’t draw air from the house. Steve Manes, Brooklyn, USA www.magpie.com

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I’d vote for natural gas over propane, particularly if you have a basement since propane is heavier than air as I recall and will tend to collect below (a potential fire/explosion hazard).  Natural gas is lighter and will rise and usually dissipate easier. P – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a nice and pretty big fireplace in our home, but were recently told that there is a crack in the chimney that will be hard to sleeve because of the angle inside. It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA

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– John Galbreath Jr. http://www.FireLogs.com Birmingham, Alabama 888.321.Logs

.<snip Natural pressure is 5"-7" WC (Water Column) and propane is 10 to 13" WC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – normally do propane and natural gas usually run at similar, or different, pipe pressures? Garry

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First get a gas heater.  A fireplace is for show NOT for heat. 1. You heat up the chimney 2. You heat up all the brick around the chimney 3. You heat up the outside IF the chimney is on a outside wall. 4. You have one out of four sides that gives you heat. As you can see it for snow NOT for heat. Good luck!

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All this, Garry, is an excellent argument in favor of electricity.

Yikes! You think houses never burn down because of electrical fires???? As for means of supplying heat, about the safest I can think of is what I’m planning on my renovation house… hot water, to be supplied by a propane heater that will be located *outside* the house. (Although, granted, I think I’m going to have to attach it to the side of the house.) As for those of you who think that putting a gas furnace inside a house is really very safe, that’s true… but we had an interesting incident in my current neighborhood a couple years ago. A pressure regulator valve on the neighborhood natural gas supply failed. Line pressure shot up sky high. Pilot lights also shot up sky high. I don’t want to think about what the flames in any operating furnaces or water heaters might have been doing. But, in the end, only one building burned down, and there were several minor fires. The neighborhood was probably lucky. Garry

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We have a nice and pretty big fireplace in our home, but were recently told that there is a crack in the chimney that will be hard to sleeve because of the angle inside. It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA

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 It was recommended that we convert to a gas or propane fireplace. We already have natural gas in our house, and the dryer runs off it and is right nearby, so it wouldn’t be far to run a gas line. Can anyone give advice as far as which is better, gives more heat, etc? Also, any brand advice as far as logs, etc would be appreciated. TIA

Natural gas is superior.  Why have a tank and deliveries when you already have the gas line? Check out www.vermontcastings.com  for inserts and www.cunninghamgas.com for a selection of logs.  I like the split charred oak myself. Click on Winter Products on the right side of the page and Gas Logs. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

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