Question:

Beware of Energy Smart’s Power Planner by Coast Energy Management www.energysmart.com The claims are not arrived at in a valid way.  The power measurements must ALLWAYS be taken BEFORE the Power Planner and not AFTER.  Power factor must be used to calculate the actual power measured at the meter. The "demo" units commonly found in Home Depot have an "optimized" unit.  A unit from the shelf will not yeild the same savings. Expect a payback on a unit running 24 hours a day to be 18months to 5 years not 6 to 14 months! Rules of thumb for any real savings: Must have full rated voltage as stated on the data plate. Must have stable power factor or the Power Planner will disengage. Must be running at less than 60% of the rated load of the motor. CAN work on more than one motor at a time but they must be under the same load. Watch out for the ground lug/bolts on the boxes.  The powder coat does NOT conduct!  Mounting the compensating capacitors to the ground lug/bolt isn’t a great idea to begin with and if the lug isn’t really grounded could make for a shocking experience!  Using the ground as a current return is probably against most electrical codes as well. This guy is slick!   If he pauses and squints a little, it’s time to leave. Bottom line: they work but not like they say they do at EnergySmart.

Response:

What actualy does  that unit do and can it harm apliances

Response:

What actualy does  that unit do and can it harm apliances

The devices monitor the amount of load on a motor and change the amount of applied voltage to optimize the performance. Induction motors suffer from poor power factor when operated at less than their fully designed load.  When they operate at low power factors, their overall efficiency drops.  A larger percentage of the input energy is wasted than when the motor operates under design conditions. If a fully loaded motor is operated at reduced voltage, it can be damaged by excessive currents and overheating.  But a lightly-loaded motor can be operated at reduced voltage, and it’s poor power factor will actually improve.  This device (and others like it) sense when the motor is fully loaded or lightly loaded and adjust the applied voltage automatically to optimize motor efficiency. The savings depend on how much time the motor is running with less than full load, and how poorly the motor efficiency drops under those conditions. Many home appliances do *not* operate under light load for very long. Refrigerator & A/C compressors are usually sized to be ‘just right’ and not oversized.  When cooling is not needed, they shut off, not operate the motor ‘unloaded’.  Blower motors on furnaces *may* be lightly-loaded depending on the exact adjustments of speed/flow. Machine shop tools and compressors that run ‘unloaded’/'loaded’ instead of shutting off/restarting are typical situations where some savings can be found using this type of controller.  But most home users just shut their power saw when not using it It isn’t really new, the idea/technology has been around for years.  But you only realize some *real* savings in very special applications, not your average home refrigerator. daestrom

Response:

Daestrom is correct but I’ll add my 2 cents to the thread…. The Power Planners work by leaving an SCR turned off until the programmed processor tells it to turn on.  This is done with a pot on the PCB.  The idea is that an induction motor doesn’t need all of the energy it consumes when it’s not running at its full rated load.  There are a great number of engineering articles on this subject, some go one way and some go the other way about energy used in induction motors at various loads.  IF you have full voltage available and IF you have a non-high efficiency motor and IF it’s not running at near the full rated load and IF the Power Planner is adjusted correctly then you have good savings and reduced motor temps.  With these conditions the Power Planner would maintain the voltage but just limit the amount of AC cycle exposed to the motor.  The motor doesn’t go into an under-voltage/over-current condition and the work and RPMs are maintained and the whole setup uses less energy and the motor temp is reduced so your motor lasts longer.  Everyone is happy! The Power Planners have 2 pots, one is for the engage delay and the other is for adjusting the amount of cut in the SCRs.  The Power Planner IIs have just one SCR on the high leg, there is one version that had 2 parallel SCRs with no load equalizing circuit.  Power Planner IIIs use 3 SCRs.  An additional caution on the Power Planner IIIs: The PCB uses one of the legs as a psuedo reference and picks a little voltage off another leg to run the circuit.  In other words the PCB is at or near the line voltage!  Back to the pots, if you have what you believe is a good candidate for a Power Planner then the you can try messing with the pots and potentially get more a savings than the factory setting.  I’ve heard of results where breakers on generators that used to trip no longer trip with the Power Planner but I’ve also heard of cases where the wiring did not allow for sufficient line voltage or a stable power factor and the Power Planner just would not produce a savings or would fail outright. The Power Planner I and II and fluorescent all use the same PCB, the Power Planner Is and IIs use the same programmed chip.  The fluorescent model uses a different chip altogether and I believe is adjusted with a photo meter to brightness with regular ballasts, not sure if they claim it works on electronic ballasts. The chance of harming a motor depends on the set up.  Trying to use a soft start on a motor that suddenly has a much greater load than it did when it was set up would probably lock up the motor and fail the smoke test.  Soft start on the Power Planner III is one of the jumpers on the PCB that changes the delay pot to the current limit pot so it technically isn’t a soft start just a blind current limited start.  Loosing an SCR on a three phase unit can cause issues with motors although the Power Planner will shut down sometimes if there is a lost leg.  Electronics integrated into motor appliances like the new refrigerators can have issues and unusual operation with a Power Planner.  Coast Energy Managements attempts to wire houses with a single phase Power Planner II with a 100-250amp SCR was a very bad idea and causes line filters to hum and speed controlled motors to act up although I’m not aware of any equipment damage/failures from the adventure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beware of Energy Smart’s Power Planner by Coast Energy Management www.energysmart.com The claims are not arrived at in a valid way.  The power measurements must ALLWAYS be taken BEFORE the Power Planner and not AFTER.  Power factor must be used to calculate the actual power measured at the meter. The "demo" units commonly found in Home Depot have an "optimized" unit.  A unit from the shelf will not yeild the same savings. Expect a payback on a unit running 24 hours a day to be 18months to 5 years not 6 to 14 months! Rules of thumb for any real savings: Must have full rated voltage as stated on the data plate. Must have stable power factor or the Power Planner will disengage. Must be running at less than 60% of the rated load of the motor. CAN work on more than one motor at a time but they must be under the same load. Watch out for the ground lug/bolts on the boxes.  The powder coat does NOT conduct!  Mounting the compensating capacitors to the ground lug/bolt isn’t a great idea to begin with and if the lug isn’t really grounded could make for a shocking experience!  Using the ground as a current return is probably against most electrical codes as well. This guy is slick!   If he pauses and squints a little, it’s time to leave. Bottom line: they work but not like they say they do at EnergySmart.

Response:

I have taken them apart and wired in a SSR to increase the current so I could run my 240v 1.5hp well pump.  It drops the current from 8a to 6a and yes, I tweaked the pots.  I bought them on holiday special for $29 each, take a look: http://www.j-com.net/PFC_bare.JPG http://www.j-com.net/PFC_closeup.JPG http://www.j-com.net/PFC_BOX.JPG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daestrom is correct but I’ll add my 2 cents to the thread…. The Power Planners work by leaving an SCR turned off until the programmed processor tells it to turn on.  This is done with a pot on the PCB.  The idea is that an induction motor doesn’t need all of the energy it consumes when it’s not running at its full rated load.  There are a great number of engineering articles on this subject, some go one way and some go the other way about energy used in induction motors at various loads.  IF you have full voltage available and IF you have a non-high efficiency motor and IF it’s not running at near the full rated load and IF the Power Planner is adjusted correctly then you have good savings and reduced motor temps.  With these conditions the Power Planner would maintain the voltage but just limit the amount of AC cycle exposed to the motor.  The motor doesn’t go into an under-voltage/over-current condition and the work and RPMs are maintained and the whole setup uses less energy and the motor temp is reduced so your motor lasts longer.  Everyone is happy! The Power Planners have 2 pots, one is for the engage delay and the other is for adjusting the amount of cut in the SCRs.  The Power Planner IIs have just one SCR on the high leg, there is one version that had 2 parallel SCRs with no load equalizing circuit.  Power Planner IIIs use 3 SCRs.  An additional caution on the Power Planner IIIs: The PCB uses one of the legs as a psuedo reference and picks a little voltage off another leg to run the circuit.  In other words the PCB is at or near the line voltage!  Back to the pots, if you have what you believe is a good candidate for a Power Planner then the you can try messing with the pots and potentially get more a savings than the factory setting.  I’ve heard of results where breakers on generators that used to trip no longer trip with the Power Planner but I’ve also heard of cases where the wiring did not allow for sufficient line voltage or a stable power factor and the Power Planner just would not produce a savings or would fail outright. The Power Planner I and II and fluorescent all use the same PCB, the Power Planner Is and IIs use the same programmed chip.  The fluorescent model uses a different chip altogether and I believe is adjusted with a photo meter to brightness with regular ballasts, not sure if they claim it works on electronic ballasts. The chance of harming a motor depends on the set up.  Trying to use a soft start on a motor that suddenly has a much greater load than it did when it was set up would probably lock up the motor and fail the smoke test.  Soft start on the Power Planner III is one of the jumpers on the PCB that changes the delay pot to the current limit pot so it technically isn’t a soft start just a blind current limited start.  Loosing an SCR on a three phase unit can cause issues with motors although the Power Planner will shut down sometimes if there is a lost leg.  Electronics integrated into motor appliances like the new refrigerators can have issues and unusual operation with a Power Planner.  Coast Energy Managements attempts to wire houses with a single phase Power Planner II with a 100-250amp SCR was a very bad idea and causes line filters to hum and speed controlled motors to act up although I’m not aware of any equipment damage/failures from the adventure. Beware of Energy Smart’s Power Planner by Coast Energy Management www.energysmart.com The claims are not arrived at in a valid way.  The power measurements must ALLWAYS be taken BEFORE the Power Planner and not AFTER.  Power factor must be used to calculate the actual power measured at the meter. The "demo" units commonly found in Home Depot have an "optimized" unit. A unit from the shelf will not yeild the same savings. Expect a payback on a unit running 24 hours a day to be 18months to 5 years not 6 to 14 months! Rules of thumb for any real savings: Must have full rated voltage as stated on the data plate. Must have stable power factor or the Power Planner will disengage. Must be running at less than 60% of the rated load of the motor. CAN work on more than one motor at a time but they must be under the same load. Watch out for the ground lug/bolts on the boxes.  The powder coat does NOT conduct!  Mounting the compensating capacitors to the ground lug/bolt isn’t a great idea to begin with and if the lug isn’t really grounded could make for a shocking experience!  Using the ground as a current return is probably against most electrical codes as well. This guy is slick!   If he pauses and squints a little, it’s time to leave. Bottom line: they work but not like they say they do at EnergySmart.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Those are some cool pics of the mod you did to use the Power Planner in that application. I’m afraid I was originally mistaken when I said the Power Planner I and Power Planner II use the same board/circuit.  I reviewed my notes and drawings to find they are different but they do use the same chip I believe.  The Power Planner III is altogether different. http://www.ezend.com/ppi.tif   85K http://www.ezend.com/ppii.tif   97K http://www.ezend.com/ppiii.tif   550K LZW compression so you may need to download or recover from the cache folder to view with a graphics viewer depending on the browser and OS and all that stuff. Happy Hacking, Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have taken them apart and wired in a SSR to increase the current so I could run my 240v 1.5hp well pump.  It drops the current from 8a to 6a and yes, I tweaked the pots.  I bought them on holiday special for $29 each, take a look: http://www.j-com.net/PFC_bare.JPG http://www.j-com.net/PFC_closeup.JPG http://www.j-com.net/PFC_BOX.JPG Daestrom is correct but I’ll add my 2 cents to the thread…. The Power Planners work by leaving an SCR turned off until the programmed processor tells it to turn on.  This is done with a pot on the PCB.  The idea is that an induction motor doesn’t need all of the energy it consumes when it’s not running at its full rated load.  There are a great number of engineering articles on this subject, some go one way and some go the other way about energy used in induction motors at various loads.  IF you have full voltage available and IF you have a non-high efficiency motor and IF it’s not running at near the full rated load and IF the Power Planner is adjusted correctly then you have good savings and reduced motor temps.  With these conditions the Power Planner would maintain the voltage but just limit the amount of AC cycle exposed to the motor.  The motor doesn’t go into an under-voltage/over-current condition and the work and RPMs are maintained and the whole setup uses less energy and the motor temp is reduced so your motor lasts longer.  Everyone is happy! The Power Planners have 2 pots, one is for the engage delay and the other is for adjusting the amount of cut in the SCRs.  The Power Planner IIs have just one SCR on the high leg, there is one version that had 2 parallel SCRs with no load equalizing circuit.  Power Planner IIIs use 3 SCRs.  An additional caution on the Power Planner IIIs: The PCB uses one of the legs as a psuedo reference and picks a little voltage off another leg to run the circuit.  In other words the PCB is at or near the line voltage!  Back to the pots, if you have what you believe is a good candidate for a Power Planner then the you can try messing with the pots and potentially get more a savings than the factory setting.  I’ve heard of results where breakers on generators that used to trip no longer trip with the Power Planner but I’ve also heard of cases where the wiring did not allow for sufficient line voltage or a stable power factor and the Power Planner just would not produce a savings or would fail outright. The Power Planner I and II and fluorescent all use the same PCB, the Power Planner Is and IIs use the same programmed chip.  The fluorescent model uses a different chip altogether and I believe is adjusted with a photo meter to brightness with regular ballasts, not sure if they claim it works on electronic ballasts. The chance of harming a motor depends on the set up.  Trying to use a soft start on a motor that suddenly has a much greater load than it did when it was set up would probably lock up the motor and fail the smoke test.  Soft start on the Power Planner III is one of the jumpers on the PCB that changes the delay pot to the current limit pot so it technically isn’t a soft start just a blind current limited start.  Loosing an SCR on a three phase unit can cause issues with motors although the Power Planner will shut down sometimes if there is a lost leg.  Electronics integrated into motor appliances like the new refrigerators can have issues and unusual operation with a Power Planner.  Coast Energy Managements attempts to wire houses with a single phase Power Planner II with a 100-250amp SCR was a very bad idea and causes line filters to hum and speed controlled motors to act up although I’m not aware of any equipment damage/failures from the adventure. Beware of Energy Smart’s Power Planner by Coast Energy Management www.energysmart.com The claims are not arrived at in a valid way.  The power measurements must ALLWAYS be taken BEFORE the Power Planner and not AFTER.  Power factor must be used to calculate the actual power measured at the meter. The "demo" units commonly found in Home Depot have an "optimized" unit. A unit from the shelf will not yeild the same savings. Expect a payback on a unit running 24 hours a day to be 18months to 5 years not 6 to 14 months! Rules of thumb for any real savings: Must have full rated voltage as stated on the data plate. Must have stable power factor or the Power Planner will disengage. Must be running at less than 60% of the rated load of the motor. CAN work on more than one motor at a time but they must be under the same load. Watch out for the ground lug/bolts on the boxes.  The powder coat does NOT conduct!  Mounting the compensating capacitors to the ground lug/bolt isn’t a great idea to begin with and if the lug isn’t really grounded could make for a shocking experience!  Using the ground as a current return is probably against most electrical codes as well. This guy is slick!   If he pauses and squints a little, it’s time to leave. Bottom line: they work but not like they say they do at EnergySmart. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

The blower motor in my 1993 Fifth Avenue (3.3L) quit working. When I dug into the dash to replace it, I found that it was getting no power. I then checked the power at the blower fuse and it was dead too (the fuse wasn’t blown). Since I have no way of knowing where the short or bad connection is, my question is this: Can I run a new power lead to the blower and add my own 3-phase switch to control the blower? I’m sure the blower will work if I do this, but I’m not sure if this bypass will otherwise throw off the heating/AC system. In other words, does the car monitor the blower operation through the old wiring and only operate the AC or heater properly if this factory wiring is used? Thanks, Neal

Response:

 Find the resistor that controls fan motor speed.  Most likely mounted on the fire wall near the motor.  Chances are one or more connections are corroded to a point where the connectors have broken off. The blower motor in my 1993 Fifth Avenue (3.3L) quit working. When I dug into the dash to replace it, I found that it was getting no power. I then checked the power at the blower fuse and it was dead too (the fuse wasn’t blown). Since I have no way of knowing where the short or bad connection is, my question is this: Can I run a new power lead to the blower and add my own 3-phase switch to control the blower? I’m sure the blower will work if I do this, but I’m not sure if this bypass will otherwise throw off the heating/AC system. In other words, does the car monitor the blower operation through the old wiring and only operate the AC or heater properly if this factory wiring is used? Thanks, Neal

–

Response:

The blower motor in my 1993 Fifth Avenue (3.3L) quit working. When I dug into the dash to replace it, I found that it was getting no power. I then checked the power at the blower fuse and it was dead too (the fuse wasn’t blown). Since I have no way of knowing where the short or bad connection is, my question is this: Can I run a new power lead to the blower and add my own 3-phase switch to control the blower? I’m sure the blower will work if I do this, but I’m not sure if this bypass will otherwise throw off the heating/AC system. In other words, does the car monitor the blower operation through the old wiring and only operate the AC or heater properly if this factory wiring is used? Thanks, Neal

Response:

 Find the resistor that controls fan motor speed.  Most likely mounted on the fire wall near the motor.  Chances are one or more connections are corroded to a point where the connectors have broken off. The blower motor in my 1993 Fifth Avenue (3.3L) quit working. When I dug into the dash to replace it, I found that it was getting no power. I then checked the power at the blower fuse and it was dead too (the fuse wasn’t blown). Since I have no way of knowing where the short or bad connection is, my question is this: Can I run a new power lead to the blower and add my own 3-phase switch to control the blower? I’m sure the blower will work if I do this, but I’m not sure if this bypass will otherwise throw off the heating/AC system. In other words, does the car monitor the blower operation through the old wiring and only operate the AC or heater properly if this factory wiring is used? Thanks, Neal

–

Response:

Question:

Well about a month ago I decided that it was time to get a little more serious about woodworking.  Everytime that I’ve gotten into a small project I’ve always enjoyed it and looked back with a desire to get more involved. This time I’ve decided to follow through. I’ve been reading, and reading, and reading, and then a little reading …. trust me if I say that sometimes things just aren’t so cut and dry. I had gotten to deciding that I am going for a cabinet saw …. and decided on three choices.  A Grizzly G1023S (or Z), a Delta 36-84? (either a 841, 842, 843, or 844 … hadn’t decided which one yet) or the Jet JTAS-10X (or XL … again didn’t get that part decided) Well money wasn’t the limiting factor but I wanted to get the most bang for the buck ….. BTW, I can’t justify going for a Powermatic 66 … got too many other tools to buy (and I’m not interested in used)  So I really wanted to be happy with the Grizzly … least expensive of the three … it looked to me that there were many happy grizzly people …. but there were also many unhappy Grizzly people …. it looked like too much of a crap shoot … and I really didn’t want to be one of those people that had to go through allot of crap to get the saw that they wanted.  That kinda dropped Grizzly off the list … I really started to focus in on Delta …. I read SO MANY Good things about them …. I found what I thought was a pretty good price for any of the 36-840 Models ….. $1589.00 plus tax … and I pick it up …. There’s probably people that got it for less … but that was an acceptable price for me. Jet seemed always to be right up there with Delta …. the main PROs for it was that it was a couple of hundred dollars less than Delta and just as good …. when I started looking at Jet prices and comparing it to my price for the Delta … it was more like $100 … for a $100 I decided that I would go for the  Delta. The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta …. Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me. Thanks for any help …. Macky BTW …. I have lots of hobbies … so whatever tools I buy, it’s not like they will get constant use, like I’m going to dedicate my every waking hour to woodworking.  I just don’t want to have to screw around tuning my tools everytime that I get into my 3 or 4 projects each year. Thanks again … M

Response:

I just bought one of the Jet JTAS-10XL "Bosch" packages… saw, table board, Jessum router lift, Bosch 2.25hp router, router fence, and the new HTC micro adjustable rip fence for $1699… added a mobile base and two zero clearance inserts. The extras come to about $500 (lift, router, fences, etc). I thought it was quite a deal. I’d thought about the Unisaw… at $1749 the base is included, but I’d still need to do something about the router thingee (had a router built into my Crappyman extended table). Just my $0.02… BTW, the table is dead flat… every bolt was there… everything aligned perfectly… about 3 hours to assemble and turn it on. Oh, you’ll have to buy a blade… silly, huh?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well about a month ago I decided that it was time to get a little more serious about woodworking.  Everytime that I’ve gotten into a small project I’ve always enjoyed it and looked back with a desire to get more involved. This time I’ve decided to follow through. I’ve been reading, and reading, and reading, and then a little reading …. trust me if I say that sometimes things just aren’t so cut and dry. I had gotten to deciding that I am going for a cabinet saw …. and decided on three choices.  A Grizzly G1023S (or Z), a Delta 36-84? (either a 841, 842, 843, or 844 … hadn’t decided which one yet) or the Jet JTAS-10X (or XL … again didn’t get that part decided) Well money wasn’t the limiting factor but I wanted to get the most bang for the buck ….. BTW, I can’t justify going for a Powermatic 66 … got too many other tools to buy (and I’m not interested in used)  So I really wanted to be happy with the Grizzly … least expensive of the three … it looked to me that there were many happy grizzly people …. but there were also many unhappy Grizzly people …. it looked like too much of a crap shoot … and I really didn’t want to be one of those people that had to go through allot of crap to get the saw that they wanted.  That kinda dropped Grizzly off the list … I really started to focus in on Delta …. I read SO MANY Good things about them …. I found what I thought was a pretty good price for any of the 36-840 Models ….. $1589.00 plus tax … and I pick it up …. There’s probably people that got it for less … but that was an acceptable price for me. Jet seemed always to be right up there with Delta …. the main PROs for it was that it was a couple of hundred dollars less than Delta and just as good …. when I started looking at Jet prices and comparing it to my price for the Delta … it was more like $100 … for a $100 I decided that I would go for the  Delta. The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta …. Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me. Thanks for any help …. Macky BTW …. I have lots of hobbies … so whatever tools I buy, it’s not like they will get constant use, like I’m going to dedicate my every waking hour to woodworking.  I just don’t want to have to screw around tuning my tools everytime that I get into my 3 or 4 projects each year. Thanks again … M

Response:

Delta Unisaw’s are still excellent in my book … ask anyone who owns one. Although I don’t think you will go wrong with either brand. Do NOT believe old, outdated, hearsay stories you will soon hear about "broken trunnions" and "UniFences" not being straight from anyone who doesn’t actually own a Delta. Do NOT believe that one is more precise than the other … I’ve had occasion to use a friend’s Jet on quite a few projects, a Powermatic once or twice, and I own a Delta ….IMO, I could do the same work with any of them. It boils down to what you feel comfortable with … I found the Delta to be the best one for me but, by all means, try them all out before you buy and get the one that speaks to you. — www.e-woodshop.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me.

Response:

The shopping/review adventure its almost as much fun as the purchase! I have had my Grizz 1023S for about a month, love it. Accurate. Customer Service/Tech Support great,  I had questions for them via E-mail, very prompt. Very quiet unit, nickel test passed. Took me about 6 hours to set it all up. Manual does need an update but one can figure it out by turning a few more pages. I did inform Grizz of this and maybe they will provide an addendum to their shipments. Good  luck in your search, some very nice units of all makes out there. Chuck

Response:

The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta ….

In the past 3 or 4 years I have heard and read of owners reporting their Unisaws arriving with broken trunions.  Seems as though the assembly line was not paying close enough attention to the proper torque during assembly. I’ll say that it was always blamed on the shipper,,,,and yet Jet never had this problem out of a shipper…  Most Grisslys arive with the saw on its side… Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool?

Jet has been up there in quality for quite some time… I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me.

Three years ago this coming summer I was in the market and had narrowed it down to the Delta or the Jet…Fortunately I had a close dealer that had both units setting side by side.  I was able to go over each feature by feature and compare.   I bought the Jet.  IMHO the Delta had nothing going for it that was better than the Jet.  BTY the Delta had been sitting on the store floor for several weeks waiting for a replacement trunion….

Response:

I have the Unisaw with the 50" Biesemeyer.  It came set up dead on and has been a pleasure to use.  I have also played around with the Jet and have found it also to be a very good saw.  I have not used a Grizzly, but from the posts, the quality can be inconsistent.  Sometimes, everything works great out of the box and sometimes you go through a period of getting it setup and replacing a part or two.  However, I haven’t seen any posts I can immediately recall to where they weren’t happy once everything was going right.  So I guess if you want to save money and don’t mind possibly having to fool with the machine a little to get it right, the Grizzly might be the way to go.  Personally, I would go with the Jet or Delta. BTW, I have dealt with Jet, Delta and Grizzly support and don’t have anything bad to say about any of them.  Except, perhaps when Delta really screwed up their support for awhile when they combined PC and Delta support and outsourced it to the repair centers. Preston

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well about a month ago I decided that it was time to get a little more serious about woodworking.  Everytime that I’ve gotten into a small project I’ve always enjoyed it and looked back with a desire to get more involved. This time I’ve decided to follow through. I’ve been reading, and reading, and reading, and then a little reading …. trust me if I say that sometimes things just aren’t so cut and dry. I had gotten to deciding that I am going for a cabinet saw …. and decided on three choices.  A Grizzly G1023S (or Z), a Delta 36-84? (either a 841, 842, 843, or 844 … hadn’t decided which one yet) or the Jet JTAS-10X (or XL … again didn’t get that part decided) Well money wasn’t the limiting factor but I wanted to get the most bang for the buck ….. BTW, I can’t justify going for a Powermatic 66 … got too many other tools to buy (and I’m not interested in used)  So I really wanted to be happy with the Grizzly … least expensive of the three … it looked to me that there were many happy grizzly people …. but there were also many unhappy Grizzly people …. it looked like too much of a crap shoot … and I really didn’t want to be one of those people that had to go through allot of crap to get the saw that they wanted.  That kinda dropped Grizzly off the list … I really started to focus in on Delta …. I read SO MANY Good things about them …. I found what I thought was a pretty good price for any of the 36-840 Models ….. $1589.00 plus tax … and I pick it up …. There’s probably people that got it for less … but that was an acceptable price for me. Jet seemed always to be right up there with Delta …. the main PROs for it was that it was a couple of hundred dollars less than Delta and just as good …. when I started looking at Jet prices and comparing it to my price for the Delta … it was more like $100 … for a $100 I decided that I would go for the  Delta. The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta …. Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me. Thanks for any help …. Macky BTW …. I have lots of hobbies … so whatever tools I buy, it’s not like they will get constant use, like I’m going to dedicate my every waking hour to woodworking.  I just don’t want to have to screw around tuning my tools everytime that I get into my 3 or 4 projects each year. Thanks again … M

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I bought two Unisaws within the past year, the first one had a broken trunnion, Delta replaced it, and I would up selling the saw.  It certainly gave me a really good idea of how Unisaws go together (and come apart!). The second one was fine. Both were bought as NOS (new-old-stock) and transported personally by me, so the problem was not in the shipping. JE

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta …. In the past 3 or 4 years I have heard and read of owners reporting their Unisaws arriving with broken trunions.  Seems as though the assembly line was not paying close enough attention to the proper torque during assembly. I’ll say that it was always blamed on the shipper,,,,and yet Jet never had this problem out of a shipper…  Most Grisslys arive with the saw on its side… Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? Jet has been up there in quality for quite some time… I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me. Three years ago this coming summer I was in the market and had narrowed it down to the Delta or the Jet…Fortunately I had a close dealer that had both units setting side by side.  I was able to go over each feature by feature and compare.   I bought the Jet.  IMHO the Delta had nothing going for it that was better than the Jet.  BTY the Delta had been sitting on the store floor for several weeks waiting for a replacement trunion….

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Oh, you’ll have to buy a blade… silly, huh?

Oh, I dunno – most people seem to toss the stock blade anyway, so why bother with it?

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Hi Macky, I read your post and you say you’re not interested in used, so this might annoy you…but why not?  You say you have lots of hobbies and many tools to buy. Wouldn’t it be great to get two great floor tools for the price of one? I’m like you.  I appreciate new.  I like things in good shape but cabinet saws will outlive you and I by a long ways with simple care. A used cabinet saw such as the Unisaw, PM 66 or the General 350 (if you can find one of these used) would be a great find!!  Tools are one of the only areas I consider used equipment.  Good quality tools are built to last a very long time and for hobbyists that means much longer than us.  Reconsider your stand. Neil

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Equipment arriving with damaged parts is a fact of life.  I got a Powermatic 54a and couldn’t use it because the outfeed table adjuster screw mounting flange was broken in half. It was cast. 2 days later Powermatic had a new part on my doorstep.  I’m happy. You have to be philosophical about this sort of thing.  Doesn’t mean Powermatic is crap.  Au contrare.  Just like your broken trunion doesn’t mean Unisaws should be shunned.  Fix the part; life go on. Don’t you see Mercedes and Beemers in the shop?  Are they crap? I just wish I could afford a couple. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought two Unisaws within the past year, the first one had a broken trunnion, Delta replaced it, and I would up selling the saw.  It certainly gave me a really good idea of how Unisaws go together (and come apart!). The second one was fine. Both were bought as NOS (new-old-stock) and transported personally by me, so the problem was not in the shipping. JE The past few days I’ve been doing more NG searches on the Delta … this time sorting on date, more recent posts at the top of the list.   I started to see comments like "Delta isn’t what it used to be" and quality problems starting to show up with Delta …. In the past 3 or 4 years I have heard and read of owners reporting their Unisaws arriving with broken trunions.  Seems as though the assembly line was not paying close enough attention to the proper torque during assembly. I’ll say that it was always blamed on the shipper,,,,and yet Jet never had this problem out of a shipper…  Most Grisslys arive with the saw on its side… Are the quality problems with Delta true?  Are they now what they used to be?  Is Jet now not only less money but also a more precise tool? Jet has been up there in quality for quite some time… I’d like to hear from  Jet JTAS-10X owners and Delta 36-84? Owners …. not the owns that own the 10 year old beauties … but people that have bought either of these saws in the past year or two … ANY stories or words of wisdom will help ….  I’m real anal when it comes to deciding what to buy …. I have to know in my heart that it the one for me. Three years ago this coming summer I was in the market and had narrowed it down to the Delta or the Jet…Fortunately I had a close dealer that had both units setting side by side.  I was able to go over each feature by feature and compare.   I bought the Jet.  IMHO the Delta had nothing going for it that was better than the Jet.  BTY the Delta had been sitting on the store floor for several weeks waiting for a replacement trunion….

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Funny, the blade that came with my Unisaw isn’t THAT bad. It does a credible job, but of course there’s a WWII in my shop too. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, you’ll have to buy a blade… silly, huh? Oh, I dunno – most people seem to toss the stock blade anyway, so why bother with it?

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Don’t you see Mercedes and Beemers in the shop?  Are they crap? I just wish I could afford a couple.

Or, drive a Ford (like I do) and spend the savings on woodworking tools and supplies. JE

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Why don’t you twist his arm too??  Can’t you respect someone else’s position?  Differences of opinion are what make this newsgroup possible and worthwhile.  Have your say, and then let the other guy have his. And if he is profane, or otherwise too disagreeable, lay the twit filter on him.  But to keep badgering someone is not productive. Grow up. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Macky, I read your post and you say you’re not interested in used, so this might annoy you…but why not?  You say you have lots of hobbies and many tools to buy. Wouldn’t it be great to get two great floor tools for the price of one? I’m like you.  I appreciate new.  I like things in good shape but cabinet saws will outlive you and I by a long ways with simple care. A used cabinet saw such as the Unisaw, PM 66 or the General 350 (if you can find one of these used) would be a great find!!  Tools are one of the only areas I consider used equipment.  Good quality tools are built to last a very long time and for hobbyists that means much longer than us.  Reconsider your stand. Neil

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The stock blade that comes with the Unisaw the past couple of years is pretty good … AAMOF, there is very little difference between it and my WWII. — www.e-woodshop.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, you’ll have to buy a blade… silly, huh? Oh, I dunno – most people seem to toss the stock blade anyway, so why bother with it?

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I’m an F-150 guy! Love it.  First truck I owned was a 78 Chevy Scottsdale.  Biggest hunk I ever owned.  Well, on a par with my first chevy, a 76 Malibu.  We got smart and bought a Toyota Sienna. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t you see Mercedes and Beemers in the shop?  Are they crap? I just wish I could afford a couple. Or, drive a Ford (like I do) and spend the savings on woodworking tools and supplies. JE

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Dave you may have missed the point here…Delta was blaming the shipping companies and after the smoke cleared it turns out that the assembly technique was the problem, not the shipping company.  Hearing about broken trunions mostly on one brand of equipment is not a shipping problem so much as it is a manufacturing and packaging problem.  The manufacturer needs to understand that a shipped product is not going to be handled with kid gloves and take the proper precautions.  A variety of broken components on different types of equipment and brands is to be expected but a specific major part on specific brand and specific piece of equipment is a manufacturing problem.  I certainly thought twice when considering having to replace a Major piece on the Unisaw and I knew about the trunion problem before looking at the one at the store..  Way too coincidental that the store display model had a broken trunion also.  I think that this has been recognized and corrected by Delta but for a while it was an inherent problem that was way too major IMHO to not consider as not being a potential problem in the future.

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Well about a month ago I decided that it was time to get a little more serious about woodworking.  Everytime that I’ve gotten into a small project I’ve always enjoyed it and looked back with a desire to get more involved. This time I’ve decided to follow through. I’ve been reading, and reading, and reading, and then a little reading …. trust me if I say that sometimes things just aren’t so cut and dry. I had gotten to deciding that I am going for a cabinet saw …. and decided on three choices.  A Grizzly G1023S (or Z), a Delta 36-84? (either a 841, 842, 843, or 844 … hadn’t decided which one yet) or the Jet JTAS-10X (or XL … again didn’t get that part decided)

I bought the Delta a year ago after agonizing between it and the Jet. I’ve been very happy with my Delta and have no regrets.  What decided me was, at the time the Delta offered a mobile base, 54" fence and extension table at a good price.  I can’t recall now what the comparable Jet package was, but I don’t think it was as good so I went with Delta.  Right now, there seems to be a pretty good Jet package so if I were buying now I might well go with the Jet instead of the Delta. You can’t go wrong with either, so pick the one that seems to have the most bang for the buck,…or the one that looks prettier to you, I don’t think you’ll ever get a strong consensous of opinion for one or the other. I don’t know anything about the Grizzly.

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Dave you may have missed the point here…Delta was blaming the shipping companies and after the smoke cleared it turns out that the assembly technique was the problem, not the shipping company.  I think that this has been recognized and corrected by Delta but for a while it was an inherent problem that was way too major IMHO to not consider as not being a potential problem in the future.

It should have been a big concern at the time, but since it has been found and corrected, the chances of it happening again are slim.  I’m sure Delta’s reputation was hurt and they took steps to prevent it from happening again. Look at the automotive recalls.   They still happen, but I’ve never seen the same one twice. Ed

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Dave, He’s on here for opinion.  I gave him mine in a friendly manner.  I was trying to help out in a way I believe is positive.  Badgering?  I think not.  Read some of my posts, I don’t go after anyone (not that I can think of), it’s not my style.  Have another read below, maybe you too, will reconsider?  BTW, your "grow up" comment tells me a lot about you.  That, I consider badgering.  Your post was unneccessary. Neil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you twist his arm too??  Can’t you respect someone else’s position?  Differences of opinion are what make this newsgroup possible and worthwhile.  Have your say, and then let the other guy have his. And if he is profane, or otherwise too disagreeable, lay the twit filter on him.  But to keep badgering someone is not productive. Grow up. dave Hi Macky, I read your post and you say you’re not interested in used, so this might annoy you…but why not?  You say you have lots of hobbies and many tools to buy. Wouldn’t it be great to get two great floor tools for the price of one? I’m like you.  I appreciate new.  I like things in good shape but cabinet saws will outlive you and I by a long ways with simple care. A used cabinet saw such as the Unisaw, PM 66 or the General 350 (if you can find one of these used) would be a great find!!  Tools are one of the only areas I consider used equipment.  Good quality tools are built to last a very long time and for hobbyists that means much longer than us.  Reconsider your stand. Neil

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He’s on here for opinion.  I gave him mine in a friendly manner.  I was trying to help out in a way I believe is positive.  Badgering?  

I didn’t see anything wrong with your response either. With proper examination and knowledge of a tool, a used version can fill all expectations.

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Myself, I bought a PM66 the General 350 would have been my second choice.  I’m not particularly impressed with the precision of any of the American style cabinet saws (Jet, Delta, Grizzly, PM, General, etc).  They’re fine for ripping operations but you’re left to build jigs and such for accurate crosscut operations and even then they’re fairly limited in capacity and precision.  I’m thinking of chucking the whole thing and get a Felder, Altendorf, Knapf, Cassedi, or Martin.  Something about a sliding table close to the blade and a crosscut fence with accurate stops to 8′ or so is appealing.

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Look at the automotive recalls.   They still happen, but I’ve never seen the same one twice. Ed

;~)  My first profession was in the automotive industry.  For about 10 of those I was the Parts Department and later a Service Sales Manager for a large Oldsmobile dealership in Houston.  The Oldsmobile recalls went out for a particular body style and then months later moved on to another body style provising it used the part.  Fortunately, tools have far less to go wrong and las longer.  There should have been recalls on the fuel system for each year but the last that Oldsmobile sold a car with a diesel engine.  It was not until the last year of offering an Olds with a diesel that they actyually built it with an adequate fuel filter system.   There should have been a recall and or design change for at least 20 years on blower motors. Still one of the most replaced items, same basic design…That said, Oldsmobile and GM did not do it right back in the 80’s and 90’s and now look at Oldsmobile’s fate…

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Don’t forget the 4100HT engines – water in the oil due to loose intake manifold bolts which were not accessible w/o removing the valve covers. and w/s washer pumps. A/C power modules. Can’t count how many of those 2 items I have replaced. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Look at the automotive recalls.   They still happen, but I’ve never seen the same one twice. Ed ;~)  My first profession was in the automotive industry.  For about 10 of those I was the Parts Department and later a Service Sales Manager for a large Oldsmobile dealership in Houston.  The Oldsmobile recalls went out for a particular body style and then months later moved on to another body style provising it used the part.  Fortunately, tools have far less to go wrong and las longer.  There should have been recalls on the fuel system for each year but the last that Oldsmobile sold a car with a diesel engine.  It was not until the last year of offering an Olds with a diesel that they actyually built it with an adequate fuel filter system.   There should have been a recall and or design change for at least 20 years on blower motors. Still one of the most replaced items, same basic design…That said, Oldsmobile and GM did not do it right back in the 80’s and 90’s and now look at Oldsmobile’s fate…

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And the old Doctor Pepper engine… the one that ran on 8 then 6 then 4 cylinders… LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t forget the 4100HT engines – water in the oil due to loose intake manifold bolts which were not accessible w/o removing the valve covers. and w/s washer pumps. A/C power modules. Can’t count how many of those 2 items I have replaced. Look at the automotive recalls.   They still happen, but I’ve never seen the same one twice. Ed ;~)  My first profession was in the automotive industry.  For about 10 of those I was the Parts Department and later a Service Sales Manager for a large Oldsmobile dealership in Houston.  The Oldsmobile recalls went out for a particular body style and then months later moved on to another body style provising it used the part.  Fortunately, tools have far less to go wrong and las longer.  There should have been recalls on the fuel system for each year but the last that Oldsmobile sold a car with a diesel engine.  It was not until the last year of offering an Olds with a diesel that they actyually built it with an adequate fuel filter system.   There should have been a recall and or design change for at least 20 years on blower motors. Still one of the most replaced items, same basic design…That said, Oldsmobile and GM did not do it right back in the 80’s and 90’s and now look at Oldsmobile’s fate…

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Yep! A true POS dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And the old Doctor Pepper engine… the one that ran on 8 then 6 then 4 cylinders… LOL Don’t forget the 4100HT engines – water in the oil due to loose intake manifold bolts which were not accessible w/o removing the valve covers. and w/s washer pumps. A/C power modules. Can’t count how many of those 2 items I have replaced. Look at the automotive recalls.   They still happen, but I’ve never seen the same one twice. Ed ;~)  My first profession was in the automotive industry.  For about 10 of those I was the Parts Department and later a Service Sales Manager for a large Oldsmobile dealership in Houston.  The Oldsmobile recalls went out for a particular body style and then months later moved on to another body style provising it used the part.  Fortunately, tools have far less to go wrong and las longer.  There should have been recalls on the fuel system for each year but the last that Oldsmobile sold a car with a diesel engine.  It was not until the last year of offering an Olds with a diesel that they actyually built it with an adequate fuel filter system.   There should have been a recall and or design change for at least 20 years on blower motors. Still one of the most replaced items, same basic design…That said, Oldsmobile and GM did not do it right back in the 80’s and 90’s and now look at Oldsmobile’s fate…

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Question:

Yes, sorry I didn’t make it clear originally, DVOMs will absolutely not work for this procedure. Its actually the main reason I keep a decent quality (Snap On) analog meter around…I do use a DVOM for other routine voltage checks, due to the fact they load the circuit less and provide a much more accurate reading.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahhh…  didn’t see that nuance in your previous post  ;-) In my auto experience, I always used the test light, until I ran across a nifty little signal injector/receiver setup. I always assume digital meters these days, with 10 Megohm input impedance or better, so that’s why I had to respond, not seeing "analog". Specified as analog, and assuming a low-end model especially, yes, I could see the use in this case. Chris —

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Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often.

The problem is going to be finding the problem if it really is intermittent. Make a list of stuff that is connected through the battery switches (probably just about everything) and stuff that isn’t. The bilge pump, and perhaps a bilge alarm, is about all I can think of that should be wired direct, but perhaps you have electronics that need constant power on the to keep their memories going.  If the refrigerator uses DC and doesn’t go through the main switches I would be Really Suspicious of it. But bilge pump switches are both cheap and notoriously flaky — and (assuming you’re at Herrington Harbor) you have a West Marine on site so… The suggestions in the rest of the thread to check with a meter are good. If you get confused by the Volt/Ammeter debate, just remember that an analog voltmeter is only a very sensitive (and very high resistance) ammeter. Put it in series with the device that you’re checking. If the needle doesn’t move then there’s no circuit through that device. If it moves, there’s current flowing through it and you have to decide whether that is a surprise. If volts/amps are confusing, think of it this way: Volts are pressure (if this was water it would be psi) and amps are flow (gallons/min). Resistance is, well… resistance. If you don’t find the problem and see somebody aboard the sailboat Dolphin at Shipwright Harbor (just across the creek) come and say hi — perhaps we can track it down. Giles Morris

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The voltmeter will read B+ no matter what sort of draw you have, unless you have a voltmeter with an extremely poorly designed front end. The only way it will read less is if there is *NO* appreciable draw at all. Yes, that’s exactly what I said. In other words, even something so simple as a digital clock, My experience is with automotive and industrial equipment, so feel free to correct me if common practice on boats is different…digital clocks only display when their IGN feed is "hot". Some, including radios with clock display, do indeed have a B+ connection for "keep alive" but I’ve never seen those cause an analog voltmeter to register full B+ voltage with the connection I suggested. This is speaking from the experience of having used dozens of different voltmeters, ranging from $5 "cheapies" to $50-$100 "Radio Shack" higher-end hobbyist units, and dedicated high quality professional automotive units, such as Snap On. snip  All of these things will provide false readings with a voltmeter, and tend to show full battery voltage under these conditions. Again, not in my experience. DVOMs, yes, but not analog units. I’ve used this method countless times in my trade, it has never failed. Keep in mind that automotive applications are rife with things that need "keep alive" capability, including their engine/transmission/AC control microprocessors.

Ahhh…  didn’t see that nuance in your previous post  ;-) In my auto experience, I always used the test light, until I ran across a nifty little signal injector/receiver setup. I always assume digital meters these days, with 10 Megohm input impedance or better, so that’s why I had to respond, not seeing "analog". Specified as analog, and assuming a low-end model especially, yes, I could see the use in this case. Chris —

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snip The suggestions in the rest of the thread to check with a meter are good. If you get confused by the Volt/Ammeter debate, just remember that an analog voltmeter is only a very sensitive (and very high resistance) ammeter. Put it in series with the device that you’re checking. If the needle doesn’t move then there’s no circuit through that device. If it moves, there’s current flowing through it and you have to decide whether that is a surprise.

Actually, no. Due to small parasitic loads that are inconsequential in size, and system capacitance, you normally *will* see *some* deflection on an analog meter in a system that doesn’t drain the battery. This will often show as high as 8 or even 10 volts. The key is that it must be *less than* the full battery voltage, normally 12+ volts…if you see full voltage, you have a drain, anything less and you’re OK.

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If you don’t have a voltmeter you can a wired 12 volt bulb in a socket and connect one wire to + side of batt and other to unattached + cable if bulb lights even dim there is a draw. — E.Perry

You can,  in fact,  troubleshoot the system with a voltmeter.  Placing the voltmeter between the battery positive terminal and the disconnected positive cable should indicate no potential if there is no path back to the negative terminal.  If battery voltage is indicated, remove fuses or disconnect circuit breakers one at a time until the potential no longer exists.  This will identify the offending circuit.  Then, each item on the circuit must be checked.  If everything is disconnected and you still show voltage, the problem is on a unfused circuit.  This could be an unfused bilge pump, circuit with fusible link etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often. At first, I suspected a new bilge pump switch because the problem started occurring right after I installed it last year, and I caught it a couple of times not shutting off the pump when the bilge had emptied. It was turning on automatically ok, but not off. Now, I am not so sure. As a (risky, I know) check this year, I have kept the bilge pump switch set from auto to off between my visits to the Charlie B. Last week, the battery bank was almost dead, again. One possibility is that the fridge, which normally draws AC power, is trying to use DC first, then when the battery is drained, goes back to AC. But I have played around with the controls and it really does seem to be operating normally. So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a voltmeter in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

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"Easy" is in the eye of this beholder, a certified master automotive technician who’s used both methods, and has done this sort of thing for over 30 years. I could expound at length, but I wouldn’t expect an amateur to easily grasp practicalities that are much more evident when learned the hard way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree, either method will work. "Easy" is in the eye of the beholder. -W

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The voltmeter will read B+ no matter what sort of draw you have, unless you have a voltmeter with an extremely poorly designed front end. The only way it will read less is if there is *NO* appreciable draw at

all. Yes, that’s exactly what I said. In other words, even something so simple as a digital clock,

My experience is with automotive and industrial equipment, so feel free to correct me if common practice on boats is different…digital clocks only display when their IGN feed is "hot". Some, including radios with clock display, do indeed have a B+ connection for "keep alive" but I’ve never seen those cause an analog voltmeter to register full B+ voltage with the connection I suggested. This is speaking from the experience of having used dozens of different voltmeters, ranging from $5 "cheapies" to $50-$100 "Radio Shack" higher-end hobbyist units, and dedicated high quality professional automotive units, such as Snap On. snip  All of these things will provide false readings with a voltmeter, and tend to show full battery voltage under these conditions.

Again, not in my experience. DVOMs, yes, but not analog units. I’ve used this method countless times in my trade, it has never failed. Keep in mind that automotive applications are rife with things that need "keep alive" capability, including their engine/transmission/AC control microprocessors. The ammeter is the "proper" tool to do this measurement with, if you are testing anything which has some "acceptable" parasitic loads normally.

If you’re wanting to quantify *how much", then, yes, you’ll need an ammeter. When I am diagnosing a "drains battery" complaint for a customer, I prefer to identify ALL drains, then evaluate. Since I already know how much the various components typically draw, knowing which is "on" is normally all I need. Sometimes, depending on what’s involved, I’ll use the ammeter to evaluate draw, if I suspect a malfunction that is causing something to have excessive draw (blower motors, etc) but these usually aren’t associated with "key off" drains (those are more typically stuck relays, shorted windings or alternator diodes, etc, and again the actual amount of current draw isn’t relevant, any at all is too much). That said, the easiest and most effective draw testing tool has to be the simple auto testlight (A digital or LED model won’t work well here).

Yes, valid point, but as you said, bulbs vary. That’s why I like the voltmeter.

Response:

These guys have the procedure down.  Also check if there have been frequent power outages perhaps at night (some marinas like this).  If true then your 12v Fridge could then be the culprit. But I expect that using a simple Voltmeter will prove the problem to be something else.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often. At first, I suspected a new bilge pump switch because the problem started occurring right after I installed it last year, and I caught it a couple of times not shutting off the pump when the bilge had emptied. It was turning on automatically ok, but not off. Now, I am not so sure. As a (risky, I know) check this year, I have kept the bilge pump switch set from auto to off between my visits to the Charlie B. Last week, the battery bank was almost dead, again. One possibility is that the fridge, which normally draws AC power, is trying to use DC first, then when the battery is drained, goes back to AC. But I have played around with the controls and it really does seem to be operating normally. So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a voltmeter in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

Actually, Wayne, its easiest to use a voltmeter to identify power drains. Mr. Albert was on the right track. Connect a voltmeter across the battery, and determine the battery voltage state. Then, disconnect one battery terminal (either, doesn’t matter). Connect a voltmeter lead matching to the battery post, matching the polarity of the post (neg to neg, or pos to pos). Connect the other voltmeter lead to the disconnected battery cable. What you’re now looking at is potential flow, not actual flow (the cable is disconnected, the meter passes an insignificant amount of flow). If you see the same voltage here as when you measured the battery voltage, ***something*** ***somewhere in the system*** is "on", or drawing current when you connect the battery. If you see less than full battery voltage, there are no drains (yes, you may see some voltage indicated, the important thing is if its equal to or less than actual battery voltage).

Interesting. Good post! I’ll keep this one with in the memory bank, thanks!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, Wayne, its easiest to use a voltmeter to identify power drains. Mr. Albert was on the right track. Connect a voltmeter across the battery, and determine the battery voltage state. Then, disconnect one battery terminal (either, doesn’t matter). Connect a voltmeter lead matching to the battery post, matching the polarity of the post (neg to neg, or pos to pos). Connect the other voltmeter lead to the disconnected battery cable. What you’re now looking at is potential flow, not actual flow (the cable is disconnected, the meter passes an insignificant amount of flow). If you see the same voltage here as when you measured the battery voltage, ***something*** ***somewhere in the system*** is "on", or drawing current when you connect the battery. If you see less than full battery voltage, there are no drains (yes, you may see some voltage indicated, the important thing is if its equal to or less than actual battery voltage).

The voltmeter will read B+ no matter what sort of draw you have, unless you have a voltmeter with an extremely poorly designed front end. The only way it will read less is if there is *NO* appreciable draw at all. In other words, even something so simple as a digital clock, which left alone wouldn’t drain the battery for several months, were in circuit, you would be looking at 12V+ at the meter. Same as if you had a dead short. Same as if the security system is functional, or the radio is digital.  All of these things will provide false readings with a voltmeter, and tend to show full battery voltage under these conditions. The ammeter is the "proper" tool to do this measurement with, if you are testing anything which has some "acceptable" parasitic loads normally. That said, the easiest and most effective draw testing tool has to be the simple auto testlight (A digital or LED model won’t work well here). Disconnect either battery lead, insert the testlight in series between the battery and the terminal, and watch the bulb. Bulb ON? This is a draw to be dealt with, in most cases. Bulb OFF? Looking good. There are certain loads which are perfectly normal, but take a while to "charge up" with this method. (Keepalive memories for ECU or Radio come to mind here) With those inline, you would want to momentarily touch the battery lead to the battery (with light still connected in series), which will turn off the light, of course, while contact is made. (This action simply provides the available current flow to charge such devices initially, and the bulb will maintain sufficient flow to keep them "latched" when you remove the terminal) When you break contact, if the light remains off, you’re good. If it comes back on, it’s time to start pulling components’ fuses one by one. The bulb is a natural for the task, providing an easy to read display Obviously bulbs differ. There are some that turn on with less than 75ma, and these wouldn’t be suitable, as that sort of load could normally be seen if you have any electronic equipment aboard which uses the battery to maintain a memory. (as opposed to internal keepalive batteries) Neither would a light be good if it took over 500ma to light, as this would be more indicative of a "serious" draw on almost any system. Just my $.02 Chris —

Response:

Actually, Wayne, its easiest to use a voltmeter to identify power drains. Mr. Albert was on the right track. Connect a voltmeter across the battery, and determine the battery voltage state. Then, disconnect one battery terminal (either, doesn’t matter). Connect a voltmeter lead matching to the battery post, matching the polarity of the post (neg to neg, or pos to pos). Connect the other voltmeter lead to the disconnected battery cable. What you’re now looking at is potential flow, not actual flow (the cable is disconnected, the meter passes an insignificant amount of flow). If you see the same voltage here as when you measured the battery voltage, ***something*** ***somewhere in the system*** is "on", or drawing current when you connect the battery. If you see less than full battery voltage, there are no drains (yes, you may see some voltage indicated, the important thing is if its equal to or less than actual battery voltage). If you see a drain, simply disconnect things until the voltmeter drops below battery voltage. When it does, whatever you just disconnected was the drain. On cars, I start with the alternator/regulator, then move to the fuse box and disconnect fuses one at a time (then use a wiring diagram to see what’s on the fuse circuit that’s "hot"). NOTE: if you do this at home, kids, be sure to hold the door jamb dome light switch in, it will indicate a drain when the door is open, natch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – **Ammeter** – you wanna measure current flow. Then do the same for devices with ammeter in series. Also a bad battery in the bank *can* be the culprit. Have to tried disconneting the battery bank and letting it sit – then testing the bats? -W So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a **voltmeter** in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

I agree, either method will work. "Easy" is in the eye of the beholder. -W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, Wayne, its easiest to use a voltmeter to identify power drains. Mr. Albert was on the right track. Connect a voltmeter across the battery, and determine the battery voltage state. Then, disconnect one battery terminal (either, doesn’t matter). Connect a voltmeter lead matching to the battery post, matching the polarity of the post (neg to neg, or pos to pos). Connect the other voltmeter lead to the disconnected battery cable. What you’re now looking at is potential flow, not actual flow (the cable is disconnected, the meter passes an insignificant amount of flow). If you see the same voltage here as when you measured the battery voltage, ***something*** ***somewhere in the system*** is "on", or drawing current when you connect the battery. If you see less than full battery voltage, there are no drains (yes, you may see some voltage indicated, the important thing is if its equal to or less than actual battery voltage). If you see a drain, simply disconnect things until the voltmeter drops below battery voltage. When it does, whatever you just disconnected was the drain. On cars, I start with the alternator/regulator, then move to the fuse box and disconnect fuses one at a time (then use a wiring diagram to see what’s on the fuse circuit that’s "hot"). NOTE: if you do this at home, kids, be sure to hold the door jamb dome light switch in, it will indicate a drain when the door is open, natch **Ammeter** – you wanna measure current flow. Then do the same for devices with ammeter in series. Also a bad battery in the bank *can* be the culprit. Have to tried disconneting the battery bank and letting it sit – then testing the bats? -W So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a **voltmeter** in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

You can,  in fact,  troubleshoot the system with a voltmeter.  Placing the voltmeter between the battery positive terminal and the disconnected positive cable should indicate no potential if there is no path back to the negative terminal.  If battery voltage is indicated, remove fuses or disconnect circuit breakers one at a time until the potential no longer exists.  This will identify the offending circuit.  Then, each item on the circuit must be checked.  If everything is disconnected and you still show voltage, the problem is on a unfused circuit.  This could be an unfused bilge pump, circuit with fusible link etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often. At first, I suspected a new bilge pump switch because the problem started occurring right after I installed it last year, and I caught it a couple of times not shutting off the pump when the bilge had emptied. It was turning on automatically ok, but not off. Now, I am not so sure. As a (risky, I know) check this year, I have kept the bilge pump switch set from auto to off between my visits to the Charlie B. Last week, the battery bank was almost dead, again. One possibility is that the fridge, which normally draws AC power, is trying to use DC first, then when the battery is drained, goes back to AC. But I have played around with the controls and it really does seem to be operating normally. So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a voltmeter in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

Wayne is correct, see if there is a draw from the battery bank to the electrical system, if there is none, then check between batteries. I have seen a shorted cell pull a bank down quite rapidly. Usually a shorted cell will show up on a hydrometer check with discolored electrolyte. If there is draw into the electrical system, you must disconnect everything untill you find the problem, one at a time, and leave it disconnected. A common thing is a shorted diode in the alternator but these can be tricky too. Some diodes will only show a short after charging. The short will continue to draw untill voltage is released (when you hook up your volt or ammeter) One of the best ways to check  is to check for A/C voltage at the battery terminal on the alternator while it is charging. It should be less than .5 volt AC. If it is over that, it needs diodes! Another quick check is to put your hand on the alternator after it has been sitting overnight and see if it is slightly warmer than the area around it. Any draw will usually be enough to make the alternator warmer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often. At first, I suspected a new bilge pump switch because the problem started occurring right after I installed it last year, and I caught it a couple of times not shutting off the pump when the bilge had emptied. It was turning on automatically ok, but not off. Now, I am not so sure. As a (risky, I know) check this year, I have kept the bilge pump switch set from auto to off between my visits to the Charlie B. Last week, the battery bank was almost dead, again. One possibility is that the fridge, which normally draws AC power, is trying to use DC first, then when the battery is drained, goes back to AC. But I have played around with the controls and it really does seem to be operating normally. So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a voltmeter in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

Some device is draining my starbd battery regularly.. not every week, but too often. At first, I suspected a new bilge pump switch because the problem started occurring right after I installed it last year, and I caught it a couple of times not shutting off the pump when the bilge had emptied. It was turning on automatically ok, but not off. Now, I am not so sure. As a (risky, I know) check this year, I have kept the bilge pump switch set from auto to off between my visits to the Charlie B. Last week, the battery bank was almost dead, again. One possibility is that the fridge, which normally draws AC power, is trying to use DC first, then when the battery is drained, goes back to AC. But I have played around with the controls and it really does seem to be operating normally. So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a voltmeter in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

**Ammeter** – you wanna measure current flow. Then do the same for devices with ammeter in series. Also a bad battery in the bank *can* be the culprit. Have to tried disconneting the battery bank and letting it sit – then testing the bats? -W

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, how do I test for a power drain. This much I know. With all devices turned off, one unhooks the positive lead from the battery bank and puts a **voltmeter** in series between the lead and the battery post. If it reads current, power is flowing somewhere. But where?What is step two? Would I then check the terminals for each device, putting the meter between the pos & neg terminals. Or do I merely unhook the positive lead for each device and do a check between the lead and the incoming power from the battery? Thanks in advance for guidance Joel Albert Potomac, MD

Response:

Question:

I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

I’m guessing, but I bet they make a Japan to US power transformer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

– When I’m feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the neighbor’s dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.

Response:

try   http://www.elect-spec.com/voltage_converterz.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

Yeah, they do. But to "transform" the whole house is prohibitively expensive; to put individual transformers on each appliance is too kludgey a workaround to be practical — and neither solution would help with the 50Hz/60Hz problem. The fact is, I know several people here in Japan who do use one or two US appliances in their homes, and they report no problems. It’s just that in my case, there’s a bit more at risk… Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m guessing, but I bet they make a Japan to US power transformer. I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan.

If you reduce the voltage and the cycles, the motor is not working as effeciently.  It can cause it to heat up and it will not last as long.  I realize you cant personally think of a reason, but I’ve never seen a motor label say "works on any voltage and cycles"  Must be a reason for that. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price!

In spite of what I said above, that would warrant taking some risk. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Check out some transormers and/or converters.  Even if they cost a few hundred, it will still pay to insall them. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Response:

I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise….

Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15% longer. Transformers can’t change the frequency, and the cost of a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds. What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan? –Gene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

You would find changing the voltage from 100 to 120 easy.  You would use a buck boost transformer, such as a GE 9T51B0110, which is about $340 retail and weighs about 25 lbs. http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?id=xf-oemqb&type=Product+Inf… n Since it would be difficult to change the freq., motors would run 8% slower and timers would be off by about 8%. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15% longer. Transformers can’t change the frequency, and the cost of a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds. What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan? –Gene Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

Hi, Anything which contains motor and transformer will run with less efficiency and possibly over heat. Others with switching power supplies won’t matter(they have wide range in spec.) Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. If you reduce the voltage and the cycles, the motor is not working as effeciently.  It can cause it to heat up and it will not last as long.  I realize you cant personally think of a reason, but I’ve never seen a motor label say "works on any voltage and cycles"  Must be a reason for that. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! In spite of what I said above, that would warrant taking some risk. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Check out some transormers and/or converters.  Even if they cost a few hundred, it will still pay to insall them. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Response:

Based on my overseas experience, which is mostly in Asia but at different voltages than you’re dealing with — you said that U.S. appliances bought overseas are much more expensive than in the U.S.  That holds both ways — locally-produced appliances overseas are invariably much less expensive in their home country than if sold in the U.S. as an import.  But the local appliances will, in most cases, be a better match for the local conditions, including considerations for power useage, size, and local customs. Transformers should be available to handle individual appliances; I bought mine in Hong Kong for US$10-50 each, depending on the size.  You should be able to find them in Shinjuku, or in most larger department stores such as Sogo or Daiyu.  I had a few items I wanted to keep with me — an expensive electronic organ, for example — for which I used the transformer.  But you’re right, general transformer use is kludgy and a pain, and some motorized appliances — vacuum cleaners, in particular — seem to burn out pretty fast when operated at 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz..  Some other things to consider — lights don’t need conversion, they just need different light bulbs.  TVs and radios (esp FM radios) may not work because Japan uses a different broadcast standard.  Japan is metric, so it will be difficult to have things fit, such as if you have to buy a replacement range.  Japanese electric power is expensive, so most Japanese appliances pay more attention to conservation than do U.S. appliances, and pay much more attention to compactness than U.S. products. Overall, my experience with taking something U.S. overseas and trying to make it work has had mixed results, and I usually wound up buying the local product anyway.  That’s probably particularly true with kitchen appliances and washer/dryer combinations.  In the long run, since you’re going to be in Japan, you’re better off to use local-sourced appliances such as range, refrig, washer and dryer.  A big American washer is extremely inefficient when compared to a Japanese or European front-loader or "squirrel cage" style washer.  Unless you plan on installing a U.S. style hot water tank (with very high electrical costs), your washer hookup may only have cold water available.  A European or Japanese washer will have a heater coil built in to bring the water to the proper temperature. For TV, VCR, DVD, etc., buy a multi-system set that has variable voltage capabilities.  They should be available through some catalogues, including the AAFES catalog if you have access to military facilities. For small appliances, (floor fans, hair driers, toasters, etc.) use the Japanese product, which you may find is so much better than U.S. stuff that you want to bring it back to the U.S. when you leave.  (The floor fan in my study is a vertical style, bought in HK, used through a small transformer from the house’s 110V to the fan’s required 220V).  What it amounts to is that you’re not going to be able to completely emulate U.S. conditions, even inside your purpose-built house, and why would you want to?  You’re going to be living in Japan.  Best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

Anyway, Japan’s a neat place. I’ve been there a couple of times (Tokyo and Oita). Good luck with the house building! -Vince

Just don’t blame the plumber when the water heater cabinet explodes! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally.

Have you considered trying to buy the items in the US that are built for Japan?  Maybe all such appliances are built in Asia, but maybe some are built in Mexico — or even in the US.  In NY and DC, and maybe certain other areas, there are retailers that cater to foreigners posted here who want appliances they can use here and then take home with them. Or, that they simply want to take home — buy in the US because it is cheaper.  I can go into Washington DC and buy VCRs and clocks and other small appliances designed for almost any country’s standard — PAL, SECAM, etc.  I never tried for large appliances.  So, you might try that approach.  The price might be higher than an off-the-shelf appliance for the US, but if the item is designed to work at 100v, 50hz, it might me worth some premium. Take a look at the following sites.  I only looked briefly, so all I saw was mentions of 220v, but maybe they have stuff for Japan, too. http://www.astrointl.com/220v.htm http://www.eastwestintl.com/ http://www.aedinternational.com/ Can you run 200v service in a Japanese residence, just as we for 120 and 240?  If so, you can try to get in the US an appliace built for Europe or Latin America that is built for 220/50hz.  Or, if cycles turns out to be a big issue for certain items, you could buy the European version and then get a 220/100v converter. BTW, in the 1980s I worked on a US trade dispute with Japan on garbage disposals.  Japan outlawed them because they said that their sewer system could not handle them.  (I think NYC is the same way.)  However, all of a sudden, like magic, the Japanese sewer systems seemed to be able to handle a certain Japanese-made disposal; maybe it had special sushi-chef blades.  Anyway, based on your price quote for a disposal in Japan today, it seems that they still are protecting their market 15 years later. Good luck.  – Igor

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Hi Scott, You asked for appliances, but I’ll give you the whole rundown. I think the voltage isn’t too bad. Many products for 110/120 probably work OK at 100V. US can have 100V in long lines out in the boonies at high loads, so I’d imagine good engineers design for this. When I was designing equipment, we’d design for 90V before our equipment would begin to falter. This was for industrial radio equipment, but I suppose household stuff might be designed for 90V or 100V min, but you really won’t have margin, such as droop caused by long wire runs. I don’t know how tight Japan controls their line voltage, either. The frequency is a bigger problem that you may think. First off, standard clock radio alarm clocks use the 60 Hz as their time base, so it will will run slow there. Many actually have a jumper on the circuit board to select 50 Hz or 60 Hz, but alarm clocks are cheap so you probably will buy locally, but this could affect the clocks built into microwave ovens, range/ovens, etc. Another tough problem one is that transformers are designed for a minimum frequency. That is, the lower the frequency, the more inductance they must be designed with (more coils of wire and/or more iron). If you run a transformer designed for 60 Hz at 50 Hz, it will heat up significantly. But as I mentioned, they are designed for a minimum, and most are designed for 50 Hz, so they are labeled "50/60 Hz" because they handle both, but you might run into one for 60 Hz only. These transformers power electronic stuff, so you’ll find them in anything with electronics, even your washing machine if it has fancy electronic controls. There’s a bit of an issue with the filter capacitors used with transformer-driven electronics. They probably engineer it with sufficient margin so that 50 Hz should be OK. Induction motors are probably your biggest problem. This is outside my expertise, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. But I believe they will run slower, due to both the frequency and the voltage. The reduced voltage isn’t so bad (just runs slower) but I think (again, this is outside my field) that insufficient frequency may also make these motors heat up more. Induction motors are used in refrigerators, washing machines and dryers, fan blower motors, etc. For major appliances, I would seriously, seriously write or call the manufacturer and check with them, and then double check the tag, and then operate the equipment noting the performance and keeping an eye on overheating motors and transformers. Universal motors are actually DC motors, so things like your blender, cake mixers, hair dryers, etc. will be OK, albeit a tad slower. Also, fancier electronics that use a switching power supply should be able to handle it no problem and are often designed for anything (100V to 240V, 50/60 Hz). Anyway, Japan’s a neat place. I’ve been there a couple of times (Tokyo and Oita). Good luck with the house building! -Vince – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

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It isn’t going to run a US-made 220V dryer, and you have to derate it for operation at 50Hz. Anyhow, wouldn’t Japan customs have an absolute tizzy over this? I imagine "personal possessions" are duty-free, but a container with a ton of still-boxed white goods is going to have them thumbing the rule book… –Gene

Keep those comments coming guys. I’m on a dial-up connection so my response is a little slow, but the info coming in is very instructive. To answer Gene: Oddly enough, most such shipments pass unscathed. And in this case, the appliances are to be included in a much larger shipment of building supplies that will be cleared through customs by a local customs broker. Although they may hit me with import duties for the appliances, I figure it will still be cheaper than buying from the local "authorized distributor." For the record, I just talked to a guy here in Japan who’s got a US washer and dryer that have been going 2 years without trouble. And — I think this may be the definitive answer — I also talked to a local electrician who said that as long as I didn’t overload any of the appliances, or expect the timers to be 100% accurate, the worst that would happen is that they would wear out a little faster than normal. So I figure I’ll just go for it and hope for the best. Thanks for all the input, everyone! Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since it would be difficult to change the freq., motors would run 8% slower and timers would be off by about 8%. I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15% longer. Transformers can’t change the frequency, and the cost of a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds. What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan? –Gene Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

You would find changing the voltage from 100 to 120 easy.  You would use a buck boost transformer, such as a GE 9T51B0110, which is about $340 retail and weighs about 25 lbs. http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?id=xf-oemqb&type=Product+Inf… n

It isn’t going to run a US-made 220V dryer, and you have to derate it for operation at 50Hz. Anyhow, wouldn’t Japan customs have an absolute tizzy over this? I imagine "personal possessions" are duty-free, but a container with a ton of still-boxed white goods is going to have them thumbing the rule book… –Gene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since it would be difficult to change the freq., motors would run 8% slower and timers would be off by about 8%. I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15% longer. Transformers can’t change the frequency, and the cost of a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds. What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan? –Gene Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

Hi, If changing frequency is goal then maybe motor-gen set is proper way. Run the motor at 100V, 50Hz and Gen. output for 120V, 60Hz. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher, washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I’m wondering if there will be any "gotchas." Personally, I can’t think of any reason why the US models won’t work OK in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but otherwise…. Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15% longer. Transformers can’t change the frequency, and the cost of a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds. What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan? –Gene Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally — at six to eight times the US price! Since I’m going to be shipping lumber and furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give you an idea of what I’m up against, a garbage disposer that I see advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it locally. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Scott Lehman Misakimachi, Japan

Response:

Question:

Hi I am a newbie to this group and to generating home power. I live in Ocala Fla. (I am hoping the location info helps in your recommendations) We had a tropical storm blow through a while back and some are still with out power. This does not make me very confident in our local power company. What I would like to have is a small battery bank that I could hook up to an inverter to run a TV, fan and my computer. I have a power inverter that can handle the load (500 watt-1000 peak) but my concern is charging the batteries. My funding is very low for this endeavor (read $100 or so). I know the simple solution would be a small or home built gas powered generator. I would like to stay away from relying on that in case the oil supply is cut due to terrorist attack or gas is unavailable due to no power at the pump. I am thinking pedal or wind power. The problem with wind is I live in a deed restricted area. (I even had to hide my TV antenna) so a permanent structure is not feasible. So now down to the real questions. Do any of you have a recommendation for making a battery charger using a DC motor as the generator. What would be the best type of DC motor to use. (low RPM generating.. etc.). Does anyone have plans for a charger/regulator that someone with NO electronic experience can build? Once I have a charger and generator I can figure the best way to turn the generator. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mike

Response:

Hi I am a newbie to this group and to generating home power. I live in Ocala Fla. (I am hoping the location info helps in your recommendations) We had a tropical storm blow through a while back and some are still with out power. This does not make me very confident in our local power company. What I would like to have is a small battery bank that I could hook up to an inverter to run a TV, fan and my computer. I have a power inverter that can handle the load (500 watt-1000 peak) but my concern is charging the batteries. My funding is very low for this endeavor (read $100 or so). I know the simple solution would be a small or home built gas powered generator. I would like to stay away from relying on that in case the oil supply is cut due to terrorist attack or gas is unavailable due to no power at the pump.

      Do you already have batteries? If not, the cheapest way to store a lot of power is two 6v golf cart batteries in series (for 12v, 210-220 ampere hours (AH). They are around $45-50 each at Sams. For max life (no. of recharge cycles – up to about 600), don’t run them down more than half way.       For a home built gasoline generator see the lawn mower-generator at this site:   http://theepicenter.com/tipoweek.html  (it’s listed amongst other articles off to the left). There are several other articles that might interest you.       Note that you could use a one wire alternator with a built in regulator. Unfortunately, while cheap, this isn’t the best solution. At best you could get about 60% efficiency. A permanent magnet DC motor (about 1HP, 12-24vdc) would get you around 90% efficiency (about 50% more output for the same input power).  A local rebuilder could sell you an appropriate alternator for $25 if you can’t find one at a junk yard.       Used lawn mowers and used or surplus DC motors are cheap. The problem with a PM DC motor is regulation. I wouldn’t worry about it. It would take you about 2 hrs. for a 100 AH recharge on your battery. My approach would be to adjust the engine speed to get 14.0-14.5v initially, run it for awile, then reduce the engine speed as necessary (for <14.5v) until it gets to full charge. You need a VDM ($10 at Harbor Freight) and an ammeter would help. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am thinking pedal or wind power. The problem with wind is I live in a deed restricted area. (I even had to hide my TV antenna) so a permanent structure is not feasible. So now down to the real questions. Do any of you have a recommendation for making a battery charger using a DC motor as the generator. What would be the best type of DC motor to use. (low RPM generating.. etc.). Does anyone have plans for a charger/regulator that someone with NO electronic experience can build? Once I have a charger and generator I can figure the best way to turn the generator. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mike

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Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks –snip– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Note that you could use a one wire alternator with a built in regulator. Unfortunately, while cheap, this isn’t the best solution. At best you could get about 60% efficiency. A permanent magnet DC motor (about 1HP, 12-24vdc) would get you around 90% efficiency (about 50% more output for the same input power).  A local rebuilder could sell you an appropriate alternator for $25 if you can’t find one at a junk yard.      Used lawn mowers and used or surplus DC motors are cheap. The

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used hard disk drives. electric mowers. windshield wiper motors heater blower motors etc. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks –snip–      Note that you could use a one wire alternator with a built in regulator. Unfortunately, while cheap, this isn’t the best solution. At best you could get about 60% efficiency. A permanent magnet DC motor (about 1HP, 12-24vdc) would get you around 90% efficiency (about 50% more output for the same input power).  A local rebuilder could sell you an appropriate alternator for $25 if you can’t find one at a junk yard.      Used lawn mowers and used or surplus DC motors are cheap. The

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Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks

You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

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Should have qualified that on a little better….. .5 amp trickle charger or 50 amp quick charger. ben

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

Response:

Something suitable which would be attached to the  the proverbial 3.4-4.5 hp  garage sale lawnmower at 2,000-3000 rpm and produce engough amperage to charge  trolling motor or golf cart batteries in a reasonably short amount of time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

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Homepower magazine has one in their archives, vertical shaft lawnmower + auto generator + adapter = portable 12dc. Might be just what you want. ben

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something suitable which would be attached to the  the proverbial 3.4-4.5 hp  garage sale lawnmower at 2,000-3000 rpm and produce engough amperage to charge  trolling motor or golf cart batteries in a reasonably short amount of time. Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

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http://www.webconx.com/charging.htm — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Homepower magazine has one in their archives, vertical shaft lawnmower + auto generator + adapter = portable 12dc. Might be just what you want. ben Something suitable which would be attached to the  the proverbial 3.4-4.5 hp  garage sale lawnmower at 2,000-3000 rpm and produce engough amperage to charge  trolling motor or golf cart batteries in a reasonably short amount of time. Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

Response:

http://www.webconx.com/equipment.htm — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Mirror Site http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Homepower magazine has one in their archives, vertical shaft lawnmower + auto generator + adapter = portable 12dc. Might be just what you want. ben Something suitable which would be attached to the  the proverbial 3.4-4.5 hp  garage sale lawnmower at 2,000-3000 rpm and produce engough amperage to charge  trolling motor or golf cart batteries in a reasonably short amount of time. Can you recommend some soures for a cheap permanent magnet DC motor which would serve as a generator .  - thanks You still haven’t said how much power output your looking for. One flashlight bulb or all the lights on the queen mary? ben

Response:

Hi I am a newbie to this group and to generating home power. I live in Ocala Fla. (I am hoping the location info helps in your recommendations) We had a tropical storm blow through a while back and some are still with out power. This does not make me very confident in our local power company. What I would like to have is a small battery bank that I could hook up to an inverter to run a TV, fan and my computer. I have a power inverter that can handle the load (500 watt-1000 peak) but my concern is charging the batteries. My funding is very low for this endeavor (read $100 or so). I know the simple solution would be a small or home built gas powered generator. I would like to stay away from relying on that in case the oil supply is cut due to terrorist attack or gas is unavailable due to no power at the pump.

I have been down this same path…. go to : http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html I used a battery charger at first… and charged up my battery array, when there was power…. for lite usage… a few Golf Cart batteries would give me several days of power to my small inverter… Gig

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do all A/C systems with variable-speed air handlers operate in a ramp-up fashion to improve humidity removal, or is it only the Trane systems that do this? Thanks. Most central air cond. have blower motors with a about 4 wires on the motor, a dead give away that its a three speed motor, you want the fan to blow quickly when on the cool cycle, and you want the air to travel slowere on the heat cycle.   so you will probably not find any cent. air cond. units that have just one speed on  a motor, so i guess thats a variable speed blower on all air/heat units….. variable speed. Variable speed motors with the "ramp-up" option for A/C are availble from several other manufactures besides Trane (aka American Standard).  Carrier (aka Bryant) calls it the "Thermidistat" option and uses a special Carrier thermostat.  http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/pdf/58mvp.pdf It is an excellent choice if you live in a humid area because this feature removes significantly more moisture per hour than a conventional blower. If your A/C is oversized, this feature is even more valuable because of an oversized A/C’s limited moisture removal capability due to short cycling. Of course a new A/C will not be oversized if the contractor knows what he’s doing — Sam Delete "ThisIsNot" to email.

Yes you are right, i just know about the old stuff that i messed with, to me thats variable enough.      did not know that i did not know as much as i used to know until i got a computer 15 years ago and still cant figure them out??????? thanks for the correction.

Response:

I can tell you that in the alt.hvac forum, the term Variable Speed in an air handler refers to one with a DC motor which is continuously variable, and very expensive to replace.  These are distinctly different units from conventional ones with just high, medium and low.

Response:

  Do all A/C systems with variable-speed air handlers operate in a   ramp-up fashion to improve humidity removal, or is it only the Trane   systems that do this?  Thanks.  d Most central air cond. have blower motors with a about 4 wires on the  d motor, a dead give away that its a three speed motor, you want the  d fan to blow quickly when on the cool cycle, and you want the air to  d travel slowere on the heat cycle.   so you will probably not find  d any cent. air cond. units that have just one speed on  a motor,  d so i guess thats a variable speed blower on all air/heat units….. Not true. Variable speed is truly fully variable where as 3 speed is just 3 different speeds on the motor. .. Of course there’s a God. What else explains Speedos?                       ___ TagDude 0.92

Question:

I have no clue how one of these things work.  Would it be possible to use a router speed controller on a grinder, with proportionate reductions in speed? Or is there something unique about router motors?

You could put a rheostat on it and slow it down a tiny bit, but it won’t slow down much unless it is under some sort of load.  Also, the heat problems that have been mentioned will be compounded if you are talking about a normal grinder that contains the motor in a closed steel case.  I’ve built grinders out of old blower motors with custom machined arbors.  It never occurred to me to use a rheostat but it makes sense for applications like sharpening stones and such.  It might work too if you put one of those small box fans blowing into the motor vents and don’t run it for too long. Regards, Tom Brown

Response:

Thanks for the responses.  I figured it had to be some pretty basic difference or they’d be advertised for multiple uses…

Response:

These controllers normally only work on universal motors and not induction motors.  Universal motors tend to be noisy and use brushes. Jug saws, hand drills, routers, plate joiners, sanders, etc. fall into the universal motor range.   Induction motors are usually used on larger table saws, grinders, drill presses, jointers, band saws.etc.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no clue how one of these things work.  Would it be possible to use a router speed controller on a grinder, with proportionate reductions in speed? Or is there something unique about router motors?

Response:

Bad idea.  Don’t do it.  Routers and grinders have different kinds of motors. David remove the "key" to email me

Response:

I have no clue how one of these things work.  Would it be possible to use a router speed controller on a grinder, with proportionate reductions in speed? Or is there something unique about router motors?

Response:

Tom: The following post assumes you are talking about a bench type grinder, not a hand held angle grinder. It wouldn’t work because the two motors are different types. The router is a universal motor, has brushes, and will respond to differences in voltage with changes in speed. The grinider is an induction motor and it’s speed is set by the frequency of the power supplied to it.  If you are in the US, this means 60 Hz.  To change the speed of the grinder you would need to change the frequency of the power, and this is problematic for single phase tools like a typical grinder.  Lowering the voltage on an induction motor will only cause to heat, and will eventually fail if the voltage drops far enough. Of course, if you were speaking about a hand held angle grinder, not a bench grinder, things are different, as most hand held grinders also use universal motors. With any tool that was single speed, if you are using a compatible (and external) speed controller, you need to take extra care to make sure the motor cools properly.  Running at slower than rated speeds causes less air to be moved past the windings, and may cause them to overheat if you load the tool much at all. It is not as much of an issue with tools that have an integrated controller, because they are usually designed with the idea they will be used at less than full speed for some portion of their life.  Thus, they typically have better airflow to begin with.  You still need to pay attention to heating with these tools as well, but not quite as carefully. –rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no clue how one of these things work.  Would it be possible to use a router speed controller on a grinder, with proportionate reductions in speed? Or is there something unique about router motors?

Response:

Question:

Thanks, JPF. In my case the blower motor failed almost two years ago – before I learned that you should go ahead and replace the heater core as well….good advice indeed! Stephen Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very good advice.  Although it only pays under 4 hours, it is indeed a job that nobody wants to do.  While you’re in there, always replace the blower motor as well, as they seem to have a similar lifespan and you’ll be doing it again if you don’t.   The entire box comes out from under the hood, it is a very intimidating job and by no means easy.  It can be done in a couple of hours.  The heater core should run $50 or less for genuine Valeo, the blower should run $160 or less for genuine Bosch, offshore available for under $100.  I have personally installed dozens of the Chinese blower motors with no failures and the lifespan seems fine.  Stick with genuine on the core, however.  There are all metal replacements, and in addition to poor efficiency, I have seen them fail prematurely. JPF I just had my heater core replaced, coincidentally. I have an Audi mechanic who has had his own shop for 15 years. I would only trust this job to someone who had done it before. It’s about $300 worth of labor and a $90 part. Look for an Audi specialist. Don’t try it yourself!

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Thanks, JPF. In my case the blower motor failed almost two years ago – before I learned that you should go ahead and replace the heater core as well….good advice indeed! Stephen Clark

Thanks for the tips guys!  I just looked at the service records for this car.  Looks as if the previous owner (I  bought it in May) had the blower motor replaced at Volkswagen-Audi South in Charlotte last October.  They charged him $206.35 in parts and $280.00 in labor.   I, like you Stephen, am a little surprised , based on JPF’s  good advice, that the dealer didn’t just go ahead and replace the core while they were in there. I guess I should at least be glad that I don’t have to replace them both. — Regards, David Torres Granite Falls, North Carolina If voting for either Gore or Bush is voting for the "lesser of two evils"  Why not look       at  someone who isn’t evil at all         http://www.HarryBrowne.org

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Thanks for the tips guys!  I just looked at the service records for this car.  Looks as if the previous owner (I  bought it in May) had the blower motor replaced at Volkswagen-Audi South in Charlotte last October.  They charged him $206.35 in parts and $280.00 in labor.   I, like you Stephen, am a little surprised , based on JPF’s  good advice, that the dealer didn’t just go ahead and replace the core while they were in there.

Because the heater box doesn’t have to come out to replace the blower motor…just pried up about 4 inches.

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Hi All, I purchased a new heater core for my ‘89 Audi 200.  At first I planned to install it myself.  However, lately I’m getting cold feet.  Most heater/radiator shops in our county won’t "touch" an Audi.  However, there is one shop where the owner said that he would.  Although he tells me that it is a "job"  implying that it is not easy (the reason for my getting cold feet). I have two questions, has anyone on this list done this job before? Also, should I let this guy do the job, he seems to at least know that it’s not a cake walk like my Chevy Blazer was.  He says that he’s done a few Audis in the past. — Regards, David Torres Granite Falls, North Carolina If voting for either Gore or Bush is voting for the "lesser of two evils"  Why not look       at  someone who isn’t evil at all         http://www.HarryBrowne.org

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I just had my heater core replaced, coincidentally. I have an Audi mechanic who has had his own shop for 15 years. I would only trust this job to someone who had done it before. It’s about $300 worth of labor and a $90 part. Look for an Audi specialist. Don’t try it yourself! — Stephen Clark 89 Audi 100 Houston, Texas USA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I purchased a new heater core for my ‘89 Audi 200.  At first I planned to install it myself.  However, lately I’m getting cold feet.  Most heater/radiator shops in our county won’t "touch" an Audi.  However, there is one shop where the owner said that he would.  Although he tells me that it is a "job"  implying that it is not easy (the reason for my getting cold feet). I have two questions, has anyone on this list done this job before? Also, should I let this guy do the job, he seems to at least know that it’s not a cake walk like my Chevy Blazer was.  He says that he’s done a few Audis in the past. — Regards, David Torres Granite Falls, North Carolina If voting for either Gore or Bush is voting for the "lesser of two evils"  Why not look       at  someone who isn’t evil at all         http://www.HarryBrowne.org

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Hi Brent; I haven’t owned either a transport or a Lumina.  I have owned their sister the Silhouette by Olds.  I had a 1991 on which I put 180K miles with no major mechanical problems.  Was running well and using no oil when I traded it in on my current 1996 Silhouette.  The 91 required several brake jobs, a few minor gasket replacements and a thermostat replacement.  No other mechanical work was ever performed.  The electrical system is a different matter.  If there is a weakness to these vehicles it lies in the electrical system.  Went through 3 alternators prior to springing for a police duty Delco alternator,  after that no more failed alternators.  The passenger door electric window motor required replacement (same is true of my present 96).  The radiator cooling fan (electric) was replaced as well as the Heat – A/C blower motor.  The blower motors may have perished from low voltage from the poor alternators as there were no further electrical failures after installing the police duty unit.  The 91 had the 3.1 TBI V-6 and would consistently get 23-29 mpg on trips and around 20 in town. As I say I liked it well enough to buy a newer version of the same vans. My 96 now has ~83K miles and has been trouble free as well.  It too required the passenger window motor to be replaced and has a strange problem with the windshield wipers that has been unresolved so far. I love the 7 passenger seating with the ability to remove or jus fold down any individual seat to fit the situation.  I am handicapped and have to remove two seats to carry my electric cart, put them right back in when I don’t need it.  The 96 has a 3.4 SPI V-6 and gets about 23-25 mpg on trips. It also has the overdrive automatic which works well but does need to downshift on steep hills with a full load of people,  One point, If you live in the south make SURE you have BOTH front and REAR A/C.  You can be fooled by the rear having a fan control of it’s own.  This doesn’t mean it has rear air!  That combined with the stupid black painted to option will make you get hot under the collar on a hot southern day.  My 96 has both front and rear A/C and lacks the black top.  It will get so cold on a 100 degree day you will think you are in a meat locker.  It still may get a little less cold if stuck in stopped city traffic but look out if the van is moving at all Brrrrr.  I guess from all this you can tell I love my Silhouette’s.  I’m 6′2 and weigh over 300 lbs.  I have difficulty getting in and out of most vehicles and headroom is a serious problem as well.  Not with these vans. My brother has a 1993 Plymouth Voyager and it has been much less reliable than my Silhouette’s.  It had more get up and go than the 91 but the 96 will leave it in the dust.  Well I guess I’ve given my opinion.  Others may have different experiences, I can’t speak for them.  But like I say when I bought I bought another Silhouette.  The main weakness if any is in the electrical system but this seems to be true of GM vehicle in general as I hear the same problems from other GM owners.  Good Luck! Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am in the market for a used van and wonder what peoples experiences have been with the Lumina APV or the Pontiac Transport vans. They have to be better than the Grand Caravan garbage I now have. All responces appreciated…Thank you Brent

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Hello, I am in the market for a used van and wonder what peoples experiences have been with the Lumina APV or the Pontiac Transport vans. They have to be better than the Grand Caravan garbage I now have. All responces appreciated…Thank you Brent

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Hello, I am in the market for a used van and wonder what peoples experiences have been with the Lumina APV or the Pontiac Transport vans. They have to be better than the Grand Caravan garbage I now have. All responces appreciated…Thank you

My father has a 92 with the 3.8, and with very few exceptions it has been one of the better vehicles he says he’s ever owned..   Rides wonderfull, is quiet, peppy, and overalll alot of fun, as well as practical. — Mark – Oshawa, Ontario, Canada 1989 Chevy Beretta, 304,000+ Kms! http://www.photoloft.com/view/Album.asp?s=fshp&u=575683&a=464001

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