Question:

…The  key thing when trying to save on heating costs is to eliminate air leaks.

These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. So our first step of which we have started again is caulking.  We do this every year.   It gets less but we always find a few small air leaks. Caulking is a cheap and easy DIY project that more than pays for itself.

It also increases winter indoor humidity. A house that needs a humidifier in wintertime is probably too air-leaky. A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. We are installing a couple of solar heaters so that will accentuate the solar gains we have from our windows.  We made the solar heaters ourselves, another inexpensive, easy to do, and cost effective project.

Vertical thermosyphoning air heaters below the windows with David Delaney’s "flow organiser" near the top… Thermomass can be extremely cheap to install and if you use recycled items, free.  The trick is making it fit your decor.  We finally came up with a solution that was inexpensive and fit our decor.

What was your solution? I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …The  key thing when trying to save on heating costs is to eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. So our first step of which we have started again is caulking.  We do this every year.   It gets less but we always find a few small air leaks. Caulking is a cheap and easy DIY project that more than pays for itself. It also increases winter indoor humidity. A house that needs a humidifier in wintertime is probably too air-leaky. A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. We are installing a couple of solar heaters so that will accentuate the solar gains we have from our windows.  We made the solar heaters ourselves, another inexpensive, easy to do, and cost effective project. Vertical thermosyphoning air heaters below the windows with David Delaney’s "flow organiser" near the top… Thermomass can be extremely cheap to install and if you use recycled items, free.  The trick is making it fit your decor.  We finally came up with a solution that was inexpensive and fit our decor. What was your solution? I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp.

Nick, what are where is the Barra System?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …The  key thing when trying to save on heating costs is to eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. So our first step of which we have started again is caulking.  We do this every year.   It gets less but we always find a few small air leaks. Caulking is a cheap and easy DIY project that more than pays for itself. It also increases winter indoor humidity. A house that needs a humidifier in wintertime is probably too air-leaky. A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. We are installing a couple of solar heaters so that will accentuate the solar gains we have from our windows.  We made the solar heaters ourselves, another inexpensive, easy to do, and cost effective project. Vertical thermosyphoning air heaters below the windows with David Delaney’s "flow organiser" near the top… Thermomass can be extremely cheap to install and if you use recycled items, free.  The trick is making it fit your decor.  We finally came up with a solution that was inexpensive and fit our decor. What was your solution? I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick, what are where is the Barra System?

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22The+Barra+System%22

Response:

The  key thing when trying to save on heating costs is to eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill.

But hardly ever are in modern houses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So our first step of which we have started again is caulking.  We do this every year.   It gets less but we always find a few small air leaks. Caulking is a cheap and easy DIY project that more than pays for itself. It also increases winter indoor humidity. A house that needs a humidifier in wintertime is probably too air-leaky. A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. We are installing a couple of solar heaters so that will accentuate the solar gains we have from our windows.  We made the solar heaters ourselves, another inexpensive, easy to do, and cost effective project. Vertical thermosyphoning air heaters below the windows with David Delaney’s "flow organiser" near the top… Thermomass can be extremely cheap to install and if you use recycled items, free.  The trick is making it fit your decor.  We finally came up with a solution that was inexpensive and fit our decor. What was your solution? I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick

Response:

…eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. But hardly ever are in modern houses.

Modern houses seem to add insulation faster than airtightness (with some exceptions, eg Sweden and Canada), which lowers the overall heat loss, but makes air leakage a larger fraction. For instance, a 40′x60′x8′ tall "modern house" in the US might have R30 walls and an R60 ceiling and 200 ft^2 of R4 windows and 0.3 ACH of natural air leakage, with 40×60/R60 = 40 Btu/h-F for the ceiling + 200/4 = 50 for windows + 1400/30 = 47 for walls + about 0.3×40x60×8/60 = 96 for 96 cfm of air leakage, with air leaks as 100×96/(40+50+47+96) = 41% of the fuel bill. To minimize heat loss, seal most of the leaks, then add positive ventilation, eg a) a bathroom exhaust fan in series with a $5 humidistat or b) a reversing fan in a central partition wall that turns all the cracks and crevices in the house envelope into very efficient bidirectional heat exchangers. We might use Grainger’s $73.25 4TM66 16" reversible fan (61 watts at 3240 cfm on low speed), with their 2A179 $88.15 programmable cycle timer and its $4.37 5X852 octal socket. H&R (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. Nick

Response:

…I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick, what are where is the Barra System?

Thermosyphoning air heater panels below a spancrete ceiling, with hot air flowing through spancrete channels. Over 100 buildings around the world, as of 1987. Used for heating and cooling. Very efficient and comfortable. Still being used and studied. Googling produced a 2003 French paper with a mathematical model for economics and performance, which might be improved with a solid or water-filled ceiling with a low-e coating below. Nick

Response:

To minimize heat loss, seal most of the leaks, then add

positive ventilation, eg a) a bathroom exhaust fan in series with a $5 humidistat or b) a reversing fan in a central partition wall that turns all the cracks and crevices in the house envelope into very efficient bidirectional heat

exchangers. Can you explain how cracks turn into "very efficient bidirectional heat exchangers"? Bob

Response:

A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase.

Get a pack of incense sticks from the dollar store.  The smoke is a far more sensitive air leak detector than any instrument.  All you need to know is where the leak is and fix that without the need to go back to school to figure out what all those instrument readings mean. You get the bonus of the herbal smell too.

Response:

A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. Get a pack of incense sticks from the dollar store.

How do you keep your house warm by burning insense? Joel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The smoke is a far more sensitive air leak detector than any instrument.  All you need to know is where the leak is and fix that without the need to go back to school to figure out what all those instrument readings mean. You get the bonus of the herbal smell too.

Response:

…eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. But hardly ever are in modern houses. Modern houses seem to add insulation faster than airtightness (with some exceptions, eg Sweden and Canada), which lowers the overall heat loss, but makes air leakage a larger fraction.

But hardly ever gets to the level you claimed in a modern house.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick, what are where is the Barra System? Thermosyphoning air heater panels below a spancrete ceiling, with hot air flowing through spancrete channels. Over 100 buildings around the world, as of 1987. Used for heating and cooling. Very efficient and comfortable. Still being used and studied. Googling produced a 2003 French paper with a mathematical model for economics and performance, which might be improved with a solid or water-filled ceiling with a low-e coating below. Nick

Sounds like Termodeck http://www.termodeck.co.uk/TermoDeck_hiw.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …The  key thing when trying to save on heating costs is to eliminate air leaks. These might be 30-50% of a typical fuel bill. So our first step of which we have started again is caulking.  We do this every year.   It gets less but we always find a few small air leaks. Caulking is a cheap and easy DIY project that more than pays for itself. It also increases winter indoor humidity. A house that needs a humidifier in wintertime is probably too air-leaky. A window exhaust fan might help you find leaks, and you might measure air-sealing progress (and find which leaks to fix next) with Testo’s $150 405 V2 "Velocity Stick," a durable hot-wire anemometer that measures airflow from 0 to 2000 fpm down to 0 fpm with 1 fpm resolution and 20 fpm accuracy on the 0-400 fpm scale, and also measures temperature from -20 to 160 F with 0.5 F accuracy and 0.1 F resolution. Testo (NJ) is at (800) 227-0729 or www.testo.de/US/en. Crack open a window and put the stick in the crack and measure the air velocity with the fan running. As you seal up the house, the air velocity will increase. We are installing a couple of solar heaters so that will accentuate the solar gains we have from our windows.  We made the solar heaters ourselves, another inexpensive, easy to do, and cost effective project. Vertical thermosyphoning air heaters below the windows with David Delaney’s "flow organiser" near the top… Thermomass can be extremely cheap to install and if you use recycled items, free.  The trick is making it fit your decor.  We finally came up with a solution that was inexpensive and fit our decor. What was your solution? I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp.

We are using a water filled, floor to ceiling thermo cylinder on the main floor.  It is similar to a huge aquarium, giving movement to the area it will be in.  It will get full south sun and some west sun.  In a south facing guestroom we are using a large metal drum painted matte black and filled with water.  It will get direct south sun.  The drum is fine not covered when we have no company.  When the guestroom is in use, the drum forms the base of a small table.  It actually looks alot better than I thought it would. Next to come (likely in the spring): slate flooring with partial solar heating for increased thermomass Tinkering with: solar hot water radiant heating using a collector on the roof and pumping the solar hot water through pipes aroung the perimeter of a room.  I have a protype I’m testing now in the coolest room of the house.  So far, so good but the real test will be when the real cold weather comes.  That will give me a good idea how to do the partial solar heating for the slate floor.  We have a great southern exposure so it is a shame not to think solar. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I like the idea of thermal mass in the ceiling, (as in "The Barra System") where it can supply some radiant heat and be warmer than the room (storing more heat than room temp mass) and allow night setbacks. A room air thermostat and slow ceiling fan can control the room temp. Nick, what are where is the Barra System? Thermosyphoning air heater panels below a spancrete ceiling, with hot air flowing through spancrete channels. Over 100 buildings around the world, as of 1987. Used for heating and cooling. Very efficient and comfortable. Still being used and studied. Googling produced a 2003 French paper with a mathematical model for economics and performance, which might be improved with a solid or water-filled ceiling with a low-e coating below. Nick

The Barra System This system was developed by Horazio Barra in Italy and originally used as a passive solar heating system. Floors of reinforced concrete are used with embedded channels utilising hollow concrete blocks. Outdoor air is blown through the channels and when originally used the hot air emerging from the insulated southern facing collecting wall served as thermal storage. The system may be modified and used as a cooling system as well. At night a fan blows ambient air through the channels and thus cold night energy will be stored within the ceiling mass. During the daytime the cooled ceiling will absorb the heat from the interior space passively. <<<< Sounds a lot like Kachadorian’s Solar slab. The Kachadorian idea appears cheap to implement, especially for a selfbuilder. TermoDeck Passive Temperature Control Systems The Swedish developed TermoDeck system uses the slab as both a structural component and also a means of ducting ventilation through the building through oval or round shaped holes within the concrete structure. Over 200 projects have been installed in Sweden and Norway and latterly Holland and Belgium. With the TermoDeck systems the slab temperature is very close to the room temperature and makes it suitable for displacement ventilation as well as mixed flow ventilation (see later for comparison of displacement and mixed flow). In Summer the supply air fans at night bring in the cool air into the hollow slabs to cool the building and the warm outside air is cooled in the daytime. Two systems have recently been installed in the UK and the latest building The Elizabeth Fry Building uses mechanical ventilation with heating and no mechanical cooling at all. Mixed flow ventilation is used throughout the building except the Lecture Theatre where displacement ventilation is used. The building has created much interest and is being closely monitored for energy consumption and occupant satisfaction by the PROBE team (independent organisation monitoring buildings after occupation). The slab temperature is kept at 22

Question:

I have followed this for along time. It is my impression that low-e glass in a opening that you wish to get net-solar-gain from is not wise. Is that true? I live at 42.3 North in New England. We are planning on closing in a new porch addition that we are building. When I went to check into windows and I was told that in Massachusetts they were not allowed to sell anything other than low-e windows. I’m a little frustrated because while this would be great for the area if I was just providing heat, I think it is not wise if I wanted the solar gain for the area.   While the room will have insulated roof -as well as whatever else can take it- it is not designed (presently) to be a year-round living space.  The sun and screening is just to extend the enjoyment months in the addition. (though; if I do get to installing my cogen project((CHP)) I may use it as a dumping space for any heat that ends up being dumped). So; if I have a south facing exposure at this latitude should I use low-e for this application or not? At this latitude do I not end up with a net gain from insulated south facing windows overall -or does the night loss average more than the solar gain would be? How do I do battle with the supplier (if net gain should warrant me not using low-e glass) ? I know I can go to RI or NH and buy them there, but that would not be supporting the cause of allowing non-low-e glass for appropriate locations. I could -though it would be a first- be wrong about this. So I’m asking for your thoughts. If you have any references that are easy to send, please do so as well. Looks like my Yankee nature is getting hot. I thank you all in advance for anything you may contribute to this for me. David Hunt remove the withoutspam in email

Response:

Note: I have not found any, yet. BUT: There are supposedly two types of Low-E. Low-E II is the stuff that seems to be highly prevalent, immediately identifiable becasue it’s got a very low SHGC, which makes it good for people who air-condition. They also have lousy VT. Unfortunately, the "energy code morons" say it’s great for everywhere, even though the Energy Star guidelines do admit that windows without a low SHGC are good on South-facing windows in the Northern part of the US. Energy Star helps the Morons (and probably was written with their help) because they don’t require higher SHGC for south windows in the heating zone, so the fact that windows most suited to use in Alabama will get the stupid rating when used in Massachusetts means that that is what everybody in Massachusetts sells. They are good for your East & West (more summer heat comes in there), and don’t matter one way or the other on North windows. As for having anything make sense in Massachusetts – well, lets say there’s a reason I’m building a few miles north of the state line with Vermont. But the mythic Low-E I should keep the ravening Legislature happy, if you can find it. I’m still looking for good South windows. Minimum U value, Maximum SHGC, Maximum VT. I believe that "Low-E I" does better for this than Low-E II – but who has any? Retailers in this area should stock and sell them for use on the South windows, but the ones in my area don’t. I need 12 of the darn things, ASAP. (SHGC = Solar Heat Gain Coefficient) (VT = Visual Transmission or Transparency – amount of light) (U-value = conductance to heat – 1/R-value – resistance to heat flow) All from NFRC label – National Fenestration Rating Council, or something like that. Note: Most window manufacturer web sites hide this important comparative information fairly deeply, or don’t post it at all. Many seem to only offer plain glass or Low-E II. A surprising percentage of window salespeople don’t know about _any_ of it. The NFRC labels are often missing from sample display windows. Frustrated, just a wee bit… — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have followed this for along time. It is my impression that low-e glass in a opening that you wish to get net-solar-gain from is not wise. Is that true? I live at 42.3 North in New England. We are planning on closing in a new porch addition that we are building. When I went to check into windows and I was told that in Massachusetts they were not allowed to sell anything other than low-e windows. I’m a little frustrated because while this would be great for the area if I was just providing heat, I think it is not wise if I wanted the solar gain for the area.   While the room will have insulated roof -as well as whatever else can take it- it is not designed (presently) to be a year-round living space.  The sun and screening is just to extend the enjoyment months in the addition. (though; if I do get to installing my cogen project((CHP)) I may use it as a dumping space for any heat that ends up being dumped). So; if I have a south facing exposure at this latitude should I use low-e for this application or not?

LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss.. Cannot remember offhand which way is which – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -At this latitude do I not end up with a net gain from insulated south facing windows overall -or does the night loss average more than the solar gain would be? How do I do battle with the supplier (if net gain should warrant me not using low-e glass) ? I know I can go to RI or NH and buy them there, but that would not be supporting the cause of allowing non-low-e glass for appropriate locations. I could -though it would be a first- be wrong about this. So I’m asking for your thoughts. If you have any references that are easy to send, please do so as well. Looks like my Yankee nature is getting hot. I thank you all in advance for anything you may contribute to this for me. David Hunt remove the withoutspam in email

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have followed this for along time. It is my impression that low-e glass in a opening that you wish to get net-solar-gain from is not wise. Is that true? I live at 42.3 North in New England. We are planning on closing in a new porch addition that we are building. When I went to check into windows and I was told that in Massachusetts they were not allowed to sell anything other than low-e windows. I’m a little frustrated because while this would be great for the area if I was just providing heat, I think it is not wise if I wanted the solar gain for the area.   While the room will have insulated roof -as well as whatever else can take it- it is not designed (presently) to be a year-round living space.  The sun and screening is just to extend the enjoyment months in the addition. (though; if I do get to installing my cogen project((CHP)) I may use it as a dumping space for any heat that ends up being dumped). So; if I have a south facing exposure at this latitude should I use low-e for this application or not? At this latitude do I not end up with a net gain from insulated south facing windows overall -or does the night loss average more than the solar gain would be? How do I do battle with the supplier (if net gain should warrant me not using low-e glass) ? I know I can go to RI or NH and buy them there, but that would not be supporting the cause of allowing non-low-e glass for appropriate locations. I could -though it would be a first- be wrong about this. So I’m asking for your thoughts. If you have any references that are easy to send, please do so as well. Looks like my Yankee nature is getting hot. I thank you all in advance for anything you may contribute to this for me.

I’ve heard this debate before and never heard good answers. I was siding with the folks that said reduced heat loss during the night makes up for what you don’t get during the day. Also, aren’t you afraid of frying yourself on that porch in the summer time? Here’s a link to a PPG glass FAQ that goes into some details. You have a choice of which plate of glass the the low-e coating goes on. I think you want it on the third layer. http://www.ppg.com/gls_commercial/default.asp?cms_link=library/lib-fa… — Mark Kent, WA

Response:

LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss..

Seems like a good case for reversible windows

Response:

LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss.. Cannot remember offhand which way is which

Uh- no.  Low IR transmittivity.  Meaning forget "gain" and look to "retention" inside or out.  To work out any gain, you’d have to have an asymmetrically conductive layer, or have radiation in one pass-band allowed in and converted on hitting surface to frequency that would be blocked from passing back out through window layer.  Like the earth’s greenhouse effect. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss.. Cannot remember offhand which way is which Uh- no.  Low IR transmittivity.  Meaning forget "gain" and look to "retention" inside or out.  To work out any gain, you’d have to have an asymmetrically conductive layer, or have radiation in one pass-band allowed in and converted on hitting surface to frequency that would be blocked from passing back out through window layer.  Like the earth’s greenhouse effect. John

Well, I’ve worked in the window business. 2 different companies. Both VERY knowlegeable. The way they both explained Low E is that they pass one wavelength in one direction, and block another in the other direction. The way they are normally installed, with the low E treatment on the inside of the outer glass, IIRC, they pass the short wavelenth infrared waves of the sun freely into the house, and block the reflected (longer wave, IIRC) radiation from the inside to the outside. This works beatifully for houses in the "north" where the big savings come in cold weather, with reduced heat loss by radiation. However, they also work, not as effectively, with the coating on the outside of the inner glass, where they will restrict the short wave infrared energy of the sun, reducing heat gain. They will also restrict the outgoing radiation – but not as effectively as when installed in the normal manner.  This is true with the "hard" coating – standard Low E. Sputtered, or "soft" coated glass is different – often refered to as "low E squared". Cannot remember all the differences, but Low E Squared windows were much more likely to have "defects" in the coating that were visible and distracting.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note: I have not found any, yet. BUT: There are supposedly two types of Low-E. Low-E II is the stuff that seems to be highly prevalent, immediately identifiable becasue it’s got a very low SHGC, which makes it good for people who air-condition. They also have lousy VT. Unfortunately, the "energy code morons" say it’s great for everywhere, even though the Energy Star guidelines do admit that windows without a low SHGC are good on South-facing windows in the Northern part of the US. Energy Star helps the Morons (and probably was written with their help) because they don’t require higher SHGC for south windows in the heating zone, so the fact that windows most suited to use in Alabama will get the stupid rating when used in Massachusetts means that that is what everybody in Massachusetts sells. They are good for your East & West (more summer heat comes in there), and don’t matter one way or the other on North windows. As for having anything make sense in Massachusetts – well, lets say there’s a reason I’m building a few miles north of the state line with Vermont. But the mythic Low-E I should keep the ravening Legislature happy, if you can find it. I’m still looking for good South windows. Minimum U value, Maximum SHGC, Maximum VT. I believe that "Low-E I" does better for this than Low-E II – but who has any? Retailers in this area should stock and sell them for use on the South windows, but the ones in my area don’t. I need 12 of the darn things, ASAP. (SHGC = Solar Heat Gain Coefficient) (VT = Visual Transmission or Transparency – amount of light) (U-value = conductance to heat – 1/R-value – resistance to heat flow) All from NFRC label – National Fenestration Rating Council, or something like that. Note: Most window manufacturer web sites hide this important comparative information fairly deeply, or don’t post it at all. Many seem to only offer plain glass or Low-E II. A surprising percentage of window salespeople don’t know about _any_ of it. The NFRC labels are often missing from sample display windows. Frustrated, just a wee bit…

While I have no first hand knowledge of their windows, you might look into this Canadian company: http://www.thermotechwindows.com/fixtherm.html where they list both Glass Properties and Window Properties… with various combinations of  Low-E, number of panes etc. that they offer. Lee

Response:

This is not a criticism. The system you are describing & wavelengths are as follows: the incoming wave is the ultraviolet, (shorter), wave and the infrared, (longer), wave. We used a gold film, on the inside of the outer glass. This would pass the UV rays, but once inside and striking the black background they would change to infrared wave & the gold film would not pass the infrared, (heat), out. With the gold film sputtered on the glass it was found you did not need the second layer of glass. it worked just as well without it. Clayton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss.. Cannot remember offhand which way is which Uh- no.  Low IR transmittivity.  Meaning forget "gain" and look to "retention" inside or out.  To work out any gain, you’d have to have an asymmetrically conductive layer, or have radiation in one pass-band allowed in and converted on hitting surface to frequency that would be blocked from passing back out through window layer.  Like the earth’s greenhouse effect. John Well, I’ve worked in the window business. 2 different companies. Both VERY knowlegeable. The way they both explained Low E is that they pass one wavelength in one direction, and block another in the other direction. The way they are normally installed, with the low E treatment on the inside of the outer glass, IIRC, they pass the short wavelenth infrared waves of the sun freely into the house, and block the reflected (longer wave, IIRC) radiation from the inside to the outside. This works beatifully for houses in the "north" where the big savings come in cold weather, with reduced heat loss by radiation. However, they also work, not as effectively, with the coating on the outside of the inner glass, where they will restrict the short wave infrared energy of the sun, reducing heat gain. They will also restrict the outgoing radiation – but not as effectively as when installed in the normal manner.  This is true with the "hard" coating – standard Low E. Sputtered, or "soft" coated glass is different – often refered to as "low E squared". Cannot remember all the differences, but Low E Squared windows were much more likely to have "defects" in the coating that were visible and distracting.

Response:

Remember whatever you choose to like the way low e looks at night. I would make my North and East windows very transparent for good night viewing!

Response:

LOW-E WINDOWS For most purposes, the two significant bands or regions of infra red radiation are called near infra-red (short-wave, high temperature), and far infra-red (long-wave, low temperature).  High temperature solar radiation (near infra-red, short-wave), is absorbed by room objects and re-radiated as low temperature (far infra-red, long-wave) radiation. The low temperature far infra-red radiation comprises wavelengths longer than 2.5 microns.  Almost all energy radiated from low temperature objects (room and environmental objects) is far infra-red radiation; almost no solar radiation is in this region. The name "low-e" was given to the "standard" far infra-red blocking "northern" coatings because they were developed first, even though the non-standard southern coatings are also low-e, but in the near infra-red band. A "standard" "northern" low-e coating has a high reflectance of radiation in the low temperature far infra-red range to prevent low temperature radiation loss through the window from the room.  The northern low-e coating has normal transmittance in the near infra red, so it is "high-solar-gain".  It is typically produced with pyrolitic or "hard-coat" technology. The coating itself does not stop conduction loss; that requires a low u-factor (high R-value) type of window construction (gas filled, etc.). The high temperature near infra-red region shows shorter wavelengths, from around 0.7 to 2.5 microns.  This includes most direct solar energy radiation. The "southern" or "low-e-squared" coating is "non-standard."  It consists of two or more coatings (whence the term "squared") applied in a manner depending on the manufacturer.  Because it has low transmittance in the near infra-red, it is "low-solar-gain," and blocks a good part of solar energy from entering through the window. It is usually made with sputter-coating or "soft coat" technology, but some hard-coat low-gain products are now available. So to make a long story short, for northern (i.e., heating dominated) climates, you need standard low-e, which has high reflectance in the long-wave, low temperature, far infra-red region.  It prevents low temperature radiation through windows, but doesn’t block high temperature (solar) radiation. You should not put "southern" "low-e squared" glazing in south facing windows in northern heating-intensive climates, or you will block a good part of direct solar radiation in the winter. Use the "standard," "northern," high-solar-gain low-e glazing, and one with low conductivity, for northern climates.  Look for a solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC) of .5 or higher and an NFRC-rated u-factor of .35 or less. In cooling-intensive climates, look for a low-e with a SHGC of .4 or less, with low conductivity not being quite as important. However… Window selection can not be done with an assumption that the winter gain is more important than the summer cooling load reduction.  Annual energy balance, heating and cooling fuel, and capital equipment costs should all be factored in.  As far north as mid-Wisconsin, southern low E can reduce sizing of cooling equipment with negligible solar gain loss (if it is a very efficient structure), so that southern glass might be selected.  It can’t be a gut feel, it has to be analysis. To quickly and easily do analysis, there is a great program from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, called RESFEN.  It can be downloaded for free from http://windows.lbl.gov/software/resfen.  You don’t need advanced degree to run it, and you can do analysis in less than 10 min. For more information on selecting efficient windows, visit http://www.efficientwindows.org/ — Bill Kreamer Sol-Air Company www.sol-air.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOW E is good for either heat gain or heat retention, but not both. With the coating on one side it keeps heat in and allows heat gain.h it on the other side it keeps heat out, and allows heat loss.. Cannot remember offhand which way is which Uh- no.  Low IR transmittivity.  Meaning forget "gain" and look to "retention" inside or out.  To work out any gain, you’d have to have an asymmetrically conductive layer, or have radiation in one pass-band allowed in and converted on hitting surface to frequency that would be blocked from passing back out through window layer.  Like the earth’s greenhouse effect. John Well, I’ve worked in the window business. 2 different companies. Both VERY knowlegeable. The way they both explained Low E is that they pass one wavelength in one direction, and block another in the other direction. The way they are normally installed, with the low E treatment on the inside of the outer glass, IIRC, they pass the short wavelenth infrared waves of the sun freely into the house, and block the reflected (longer wave, IIRC) radiation from the inside to the outside. This works beatifully for houses in the "north" where the big savings come in cold weather, with reduced heat loss by radiation. However, they also work, not as effectively, with the coating on the outside of the inner glass, where they will restrict the short wave infrared energy of the sun, reducing heat gain. They will also restrict the outgoing radiation – but not as effectively as when installed in the normal manner.  This is true with the "hard" coating – standard Low E. Sputtered, or "soft" coated glass is different – often refered to as "low E squared". Cannot remember all the differences, but Low E Squared windows were much more likely to have "defects" in the coating that were visible and distracting.

Response:

Window selection can not be done with an assumption that the winter gain is more important than the summer cooling load reduction.  Annual energy balance, heating and cooling fuel, and capital equipment costs should all be factored in.  As far north as mid-Wisconsin, southern low E can reduce sizing of cooling equipment with negligible solar gain loss (if it is a very efficient structure), so that southern glass might be selected.  It can’t be a gut feel, it has to be analysis.

I always appreciate your input, Bill, but for those of us who don’t install air conditioning, it’s a very simple analysis – when it gets hot, we open the windows. Thus far, complaining about the heat and going swimming works fine the two weeks a year or so when having A/C seems appealing, and the capital and energy cost savings are monumental… — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Window selection can not be done with an assumption that the winter gain is more important than the summer cooling load reduction.  Annual energy balance, heating and cooling fuel, and capital equipment costs should all be factored in.  As far north as mid-Wisconsin, southern low E can reduce sizing of cooling equipment with negligible solar gain loss (if it is a very efficient structure), so that southern glass might be selected.  It can’t be a gut feel, it has to be analysis. I always appreciate your input, Bill, but for those of us who don’t install air conditioning, it’s a very simple analysis – when it gets hot, we open the windows. Thus far, complaining about the heat and going swimming works fine the two weeks a year or so when having A/C seems appealing, and the capital and energy cost savings are monumental…

Yep!  If we didn’t have the heat-wave in July to complain about, we wouldn’t know it was summer!  Those two or three weeks we have here in upstate NY can seem pretty hot, but just *can’t* justify A/C system for just *two* weeks a year. daestrom

Response:

Question:

Question for those of you with newer refrigerators: Sunday, we took delivery of a new Kitchen-Aid side-by-side (Energy Star rated) refrigerator that replaced our 42-year old Hotpoint. I’m growing concerned that the new fridge might be using more electricity than the old one because it runs a lot more often than it is idle. Just while having a midnight snack the thing cycled on twice for 10-15 minute segments, was only off for maybe 8-10 mins in between. Our old fridge would stay off for maybe an hour or more and then come on for maybe 30-45 mins. Do the new refrigerators just draw less current when they’re compressors are running than the older fridges? I didn’t measure the current of the old Hotpoint, so I have nothing to compare it with, but I did note that the new one causes the lights to dim momentarily when it starts up. Also, I noted a LOT more acoustical noise from the new unit. Our old fridge was so quiet that I could barely tell if it was on or not.  The new one has a very audible hum and slight blower noise. I think there are multiple motors running. It is quite loud by comparison to the old unit. My concerns *could* be unfounded, as we haven’t had it for 24 hours yet. Perhaps the walls of the fridge haven’t cooled to the efficient operating temperature yet. But I DO wonder if I’m saving any electricity at all with this new fridge running so often. At any rate, the wife is happy, so I can’t complain, and she paid for the new fridge herself, so I have no right to complain.   I just want to find out more about the running current, power factor, etc on the new compressors and reassure myself that we are not wasting more electricity than before. Our electric rates increased in January, adding $20/month more to our bills, causing them to crack above the $200/month mark. I don’t want them to go any higher. BTW, the rating on this fridge is 475kWH/year. Even though it runs more often, do you folks believe it’s reasonable that it uses less energy than the old fridge that ran less often? — Take care, Mark & Mary Ann Weiss VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm Business sites at: www.dv-clips.com www.mwcomms.com www.adventuresinanimemusic.com –

Response:

1.3 kwh a day. Thats more than I pull from my systen in a day.   Do you know what the old one was rated? George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question for those of you with newer refrigerators: Sunday, we took delivery of a new Kitchen-Aid side-by-side (Energy Star rated) refrigerator that replaced our 42-year old Hotpoint. I’m growing concerned that the new fridge might be using more electricity than the old one because it runs a lot more often than it is idle. Just while having a midnight snack the thing cycled on twice for 10-15 minute segments, was only off for maybe 8-10 mins in between. Our old fridge would stay off for maybe an hour or more and then come on for maybe 30-45 mins. Do the new refrigerators just draw less current when they’re compressors are running than the older fridges? I didn’t measure the current of the old Hotpoint, so I have nothing to compare it with, but I did note that the new one causes the lights to dim momentarily when it starts up. Also, I noted a LOT more acoustical noise from the new unit. Our old fridge was so quiet that I could barely tell if it was on or not.  The new one has a very audible hum and slight blower noise. I think there are multiple motors running. It is quite loud by comparison to the old unit. My concerns *could* be unfounded, as we haven’t had it for 24 hours yet. Perhaps the walls of the fridge haven’t cooled to the efficient operating temperature yet. But I DO wonder if I’m saving any electricity at all with this new fridge running so often. At any rate, the wife is happy, so I can’t complain, and she paid for the new fridge herself, so I have no right to complain.   I just want to find out more about the running current, power factor, etc on the new compressors and reassure myself that we are not wasting more electricity than before. Our electric rates increased in January, adding $20/month more to our bills, causing them to crack above the $200/month mark. I don’t want them to go any higher. BTW, the rating on this fridge is 475kWH/year. Even though it runs more often, do you folks believe it’s reasonable that it uses less energy than the old fridge that ran less often? — Take care, Mark & Mary Ann Weiss VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm Business sites at: www.dv-clips.com www.mwcomms.com www.adventuresinanimemusic.com –

Response:

Even though it runs more often, do you folks believe it’s reasonable that it uses less energy than the old fridge that ran less often?

It’s entirely possible, though without measuring it, it’s really hard to tell.  Also, thermal mass will have an effect on the fridge, a full one will cycle less often than a new one, and it’s possible you purged some stuff when you got the new one.  If the freezer section is empty, try putting a couple of milk gallons filled with water in it. — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

George 1.3 a day is what an energy star fridge pulls . That is 4.68 U.S a month at .12kwh vs their old unit which was probably costing 15 – 20 , if it was a side by side.  If you are concerned over its running get a Kill-A-Watt meter to monitor it . My New sears fridge I found out was using half of the rated consumption, but then my patterns of use agree with that. They are rated for a family in real world kwh usage.  Running more often is not a concern as the new compressors are smaller , My unit pulls .90 Amp vs 3.6 for my old unit. 75% less.  What really concerns my is you say your lights dim and they Did not before. I would get a Clamp om  amp meter one with memory peak lock. And for real monitoring of  shorts and low loads get a unit that registers 100th an amp , probably a 50$ Greenlee that you must order at a supply store. As I don’t think a Kill -a -Watt will be as accurate and find out startup draw . You should not be pulling so much that your lights dim. You never know it could be defective .

Response:

Even though it runs more often, do you folks believe it’s reasonable that it uses less energy than the old fridge that ran less often?

Sure. …Also, thermal mass will have an effect on the fridge, a full one will cycle less often than a new one, and it’s possible you purged some stuff when you got the new one.  If the freezer section is empty, try putting a couple of milk gallons filled with water in it.

That would help it stay cool if power fails, but it won’t save more than 10 cents/year of electrical energy, IMO. Nick

Response:

Question for those of you with newer refrigerators: Sunday, we took delivery of a new Kitchen-Aid side-by-side (Energy Star rated) refrigerator that replaced our 42-year old Hotpoint. I’m growing concerned that the new fridge might be using more electricity than the old one because it runs a lot more often than it is idle. Just while having a midnight snack the thing cycled on twice for 10-15 minute segments, was only off for maybe 8-10 mins in between. Our old fridge would stay off for maybe an hour or more and then come on for maybe 30-45 mins.

They are designed to run more often but pull way less power while doing so.  Your old one had a lot of extra capacity for really hot days, I understand that the newer ones don’t; this is the only downside to the approach.

Response:

Thanks for the many replies. The information about the lower running current was helpful. Incidentally, the wife bought this fridge at Sears too. ‘Bought the extended warranty too. The mention about thermal mass was a good point. We haven’t stocked up this fridge yet, whereas our old one was packed to the limit. (BTW, old fridge was top-freezer style). I put an accurate thermometer in the fridge and in the freezer, waited 20 mins and took readings. Fridge was 38

Question:

If I told You I Could save you 50% on your Energy Bills Would You take a Free Survey to find out How??? e-mail me today!!

Response:

No. Don’t need a survey to do this. Replace your incandescents with compact fluorescents, put wallwarts and "instant on" equipment on switched surge protectors, replace old appliances with new energy star models, and insulate and seal air leaks in the home. Reduce consumption as much as necessary, and you might get near 50% drop in kWh consumption. Not likely for most folks though. If you have real solutions or tips, post them here instead of fishing for email addresses. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I told You I Could save you 50% on your Energy Bills Would You take a Free Survey to find out How??? e-mail me today!!

Response:

I was at Home Depot the other day and wandered through the appliance department.  I happened to glance at some of the washing machine tags that display how much energy they use.  Amazing to me the cheap washers all seemed to cost only about $10 a year more to run (if you use NG for water heating) than the most energy efficient units that cost $500 more.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. Don’t need a survey to do this. Replace your incandescents with compact fluorescents, put wallwarts and "instant on" equipment on switched surge protectors, replace old appliances with new energy star models, and insulate and seal air leaks in the home. Reduce consumption as much as necessary, and you might get near 50% drop in kWh consumption. Not likely for most folks though. If you have real solutions or tips, post them here instead of fishing for email addresses. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/ If I told You I Could save you 50% on your Energy Bills Would You take a Free Survey to find out How??? e-mail me today!!

Response:

you are paying for extra "features". there are very efficient models that are very near the bottom of the price range, and some near the top. You can get a sears front loader washer that uses nearly 1/3 the electric and water of a top loader for around $600 — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was at Home Depot the other day and wandered through the appliance department.  I happened to glance at some of the washing machine tags that display how much energy they use.  Amazing to me the cheap washers all seemed to cost only about $10 a year more to run (if you use NG for water heating) than the most energy efficient units that cost $500 more. No. Don’t need a survey to do this. Replace your incandescents with compact fluorescents, put wallwarts and "instant on" equipment on switched surge protectors, replace old appliances with new energy star models, and insulate and seal air leaks in the home. Reduce consumption as much as necessary, and you might get near 50% drop in kWh consumption. Not likely for most folks though. If you have real solutions or tips, post them here instead of fishing for email addresses. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/ If I told You I Could save you 50% on your Energy Bills Would You take a Free Survey to find out How??? e-mail me today!!

Response:

No. Don’t need a survey to do this. Replace your incandescents with compact fluorescents, put wallwarts and "instant on" equipment on switched surge protectors, replace old appliances with new energy star models, and insulate and seal air leaks in the home. Reduce consumption as much as necessary, and you might get near 50% drop in kWh consumption. Not likely for most folks though.

Yes, this is the way to go…. and cook with a microwave instead of an electric Oven or Stovetop… Gig —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering .. http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

 desktops with CRTs What do we know about power requirements of various computers and

displays? Change the cathode ray tube displays to lcd- liquid crystal display. The lcd draws much less power, and can be wired for dc- a plus when off the grid because that bypasses the power loss in the inverter which converts the dc to ac, and the greater power loss in the power supply which steps the ac voltage back down  and rectifies it for dc. I recently purchased and am using an lcd monitor. It draws 2 amperes at 12 volts- a mere 24 watts. The crt display I had in line used about 75 watts. Also, some other things can operate direct from low voltage dc.  I wired it like this display with an inline fuse to the 12 volt bus. Good luck, Bill

Response:

I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage

http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

Go with lcd displays. about 1/3 the energy usage. enable all the power management goodies. it’s pretty easy to find the power usage figures on each manufacturers web sites. laptops are usually your best bet, since they are already optimized for low power usage. they have similar specs to the big systems. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid.

Help us with a little more information…… Where do you live?  (What area of the country?)  If you live where it snows, why?  (I’ll never figure out why someone trying to "save energy" lives in Minnesota, 25 miles from the grocery store.) What size is your house?                           sq ft 1 or 2 levels? What insulates the walls?  floors?  How thick?  What R rating? How many unused rooms do you have (living room, dining room you hardly use….empty bedrooms, some converted into expensive heated storerooms, etc.  Here in the South we LOVE our unused formal living rooms and dining rooms. Are your hot water pipes insulated from the hot water tank to the fixtures? Got a basement?  Is it heated?  If not, how much warmer than the outside air is the basement right now?  (That heat comes through the uninsulated floor and the poorly insulated heating and hot water system.)  If it’s heated, how many hours per day do you live in it? If you don’t have a basement, is there a crawl space?  Ever been in the crawl space to see if the house is insulated under the floor?  How about the crawl space heating flues?  Are they insulated?  Why not? Got storm windows on all the windows?  Storm doors? We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads.

This is the biggest farce ever put on someone.  Sell them a $16 light bulb that’s bound to fail because of its complexity.  I’ve been there, too…(c;  You’re in computers.  Let’s do some arithmetic….. 60 watt light bulb that runs 10 hours a day for a 30 day month. 60 x 10 x 30 = 18,000 watt hours a month x .001 = 18 KwH x your electric rate.  SC, where I live, rips us off at 8c/KwH.  Lots pay less than half that.  Let’s make it 5c/KwH for the problem’s sake. 18 x .05 = $0.90/month to run a 60W bulb for 10 hours a day, EVERY day.  Coffee at any restaurant is more.  For 90c/month you can enjoy your 60w warm colored tungsten bulb.  Enjoy it!  If you run TEN of these 60w bulbs for TEN hours a day, it’s $9/month…..the cost of taking the wife to McDonald’s if the kids don’t eat anything.  Why are you sitting in the dark?? Let’s talk about the big drags on the power bill……heating, refridgeration and drying clothes. You didn’t tell us what kind of heat you have, but electric heating is stupid.  I meet people going to "save power" by running an electric heater instead of lighting off their central heating system, I kid you not.  Electric strip heat is ludicrous!  20KW x 5 run hours/day x 30 days = 3000 KwH x 5c = $150/month!  Ouch!  Oil heat at $1.50/gallon of #2 fuel oil is also pretty expensive, too!  (I wish you Yankees would all convert to gas heat so my diesel fuel price wasn’t so high all winter….dammit…..(c;)  The answer to this problem is MOVE SOUTH!! I moved from frigid upstate NY to South Carolina many years ago.  I should have moved to Corpus Christi.  It’s warmer there.  Live NEAR THE SEA, where temperatures are MUCH milder….cooler summers, warmer winters.  It got down to 29F here one night…..not -29F….not +3F. About the fridge……How big is it?  Does it have a side-by-side useless freezer full of frozen food?  Do you have a separate home freezer?  These are the dumbest power hogs consumers own.  Not much is funnier than someone carefully packaging and freezing vegetables that sell for 59c a pound and packing them in a home freezer for $35/month in electric usage.  Americans are really stupid doing this.  The freezer in a fridge should be this little box with a door on the front with the freon coils forming the floor of it.  You make ice cubes in there in little plastic trays.  Mine is a Norcold.  It’s about 3 cu ft and fits under the counter where the dishwasher is supposed to be. The damned Greenies in their drug-induced haze now prevent you from buying an R-12 refridgerator like mine that draws FORTY WATTS when it’s running.  R-12 runs on a LOT LESS pressure than R-22 does.  It compresses and cools with much less work than R-22.  Sorry you can’t buy a new one like mine, any more.  (Check out the 60 watt light bulb math at the top.  Divide it by about 8 and that’s what MY fridge uses in a month……Not $25-$40 in the $1,200 side-by-side stainless steel commercial beast that dims the neighbor’s lights when it comes on. Defrosting is easy.  Turn it off, put the dishpan in it to catch the falling ice and leave the door open a couple of hours……NOT run it backwards every 4 hours so the lazy consumer doesn’t have to work or run heating strips to defrost it. If you catch anyone in the house running the dryer without a FULL LOAD in it on LOW HEAT setting, cut the plug off it and point them to the clothes line off the back porch.  Yeah, I had a teenage daughter.  Put one blouse she just HAD to have TONIGHT in the dryer and dial it up on high heat to 60 minutes.  Been there, done that.  Ever seen a wireless dryer?….(c; One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry.

My LAN here has 3 computers on it.  One of them is a server with 360GB of space.  Plug in your Kill-A-Watt to them and you’ll find there’s nowhere near a 200W load on them after the drives spin up.  New computers are really easy on power loads to save chip heat. CRTs, on the other hand, ARE fairly hard on power.  150-200W for a big CRT.  However, it will take you YEARS to recover the cost of converting to LCD monitors at current pricing.  When you have to replace a CRT, buy an LCD monitor, instead.  Think that’s logical? Turn off the CRT and leave the computer running whenever you’re leaving your seat for over an hour at a clip.  The computers are pretty easy on power.  Mine run 24/7/365 on an 1KW Tripplite UPS modified to use a 130AH deep-cycle boat battery for backup.  I’ve seen it run for 3 days with no AC power….(c; What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Just do the math.  You’re spending $150/month, $1800/year for electric.  Will it be cheaper to run a $10,000 windmill into $1200 in batteries that require replacing every 2 years to operate a 3KW inverter while you sit in the dark? I moved out of a palatial house with 13′ ceilings, beautiful staircases to the upper stories that cost me $585/month to heat and light……into a 14X70, Yankeeland-insulated, heat pump heated/cooled mobile home with R-22 in the roof and walls and R-14 under the floor. I just looked up from my desk and it’s 78.4F on the digital thermometer.  It’s 40F outside and raining like hell in Charleston, today.  All three computers are buzzing away, like always……. Cost?      My biggest bill in 2003 was $78.  Lowest was $43.  This is an all-electric home built in 1981 when I moved out of that monster that was sucking on my wallet.  I have a nice fireplace, but rarely light it because the neighbors don’t like the fumes. I just looked.  The 5-bulb chandelier in the country kitchen is running full tilt.  I’ve got 4 lights on in here and the flourescent porch light runs 24/7 cause it makes me feel good.  The main bathroom light is on, too.  Don’t remember why….. In the summer, when it’s 90F in Charleston, same as it was in Syracuse before I moved South, but for 7 months here, instead of 2 there, I keep it 72F in here.  It’s fine…… I’d say most of us could live just fine if we didn’t try to "keep-up-with-the-Joneses" buying a way-too-big house we rarely need or use.  Been there, done that.  And I spent every weekend fixing and painting and "home improving"…..instead of sailing and boating and fooling around like I do now….(c; Think I’ll go turn out that bathroom light, now.  You’re makin’ me feel guilty suckin’ all that power of’n the grid….. Larry W4CSC No, no, Scotty!  I said, "Beam me a wrench.", not a WENCH! Kirk Out…..

Response:

My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy…

In cool climates, space heating is the largest slice of the energy pie. Are your hot water pipes insulated from the hot water tank to the fixtures?

This makes sense, for a few feet near the water heater. Got a basement?  Is it heated?  If not, how much warmer than the outside air is the basement right now?  (That heat comes through the uninsulated floor and the poorly insulated heating and hot water system.)

Warm air rises. That heat is more likely from warmer underground soil. How about the crawl space heating flues?  Are they insulated?  Why not?

Why not warm the house with escaping flue heat? Or do you mean ducts? We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. This is the biggest farce ever put on someone.  Sell them a $16 light bulb that’s bound to fail because of its complexity.

Maybe $2. Everything fails, even a 7,000 hour CF vs a 750 hour incandescent. Let’s do some arithmetic…..

Goody. 60 watt light bulb that runs 10 hours a day for a 30 day month. 60 x 10 x 30 = 18,000 watt hours a month x .001 = 18 KwH x your electric rate.  SC, where I live, rips us off at 8c/KwH.  Lots pay less than half that.

In Phila, we pay about 15 cents/kWh. Let’s make it 5c/KwH for the problem’s sake.

Tra la… 18 x .05 = $0.90/month to run a 60W bulb for 10 hours a day, EVERY day.  Coffee at any restaurant is more.  For 90c/month you can enjoy your 60w warm colored tungsten bulb.  Enjoy it!  If you run TEN of these 60w bulbs for TEN hours a day, it’s $9/month…

If you run 10 15 W CFs, it’s $2/month. Why waste money and energy? I meet people going to "save power" by running an electric heater instead of lighting off their central heating system…

Good idea, for a small room, or a heater under a desk. Do you have a separate home freezer?  These are the dumbest power hogs consumers own.

Do they use more power than fridges? Not much is funnier than someone carefully packaging and freezing vegetables that sell for 59c a pound and packing them in a home freezer for $35/month in electric usage.

Your freezer uses $35/30/0.05 = 23 kWh/day? Recent fridge/freezers use about 400 kWh/year, ie 1.08 kWh/day. Last week, my supermarket was selling porterhouse steak for $10.25 a pound, but every month or so, the price is closer to $3… The damned Greenies in their drug-induced haze now prevent you from buying an R-12 refridgerator like mine that draws FORTY WATTS when it’s running.  R-12 runs on a LOT LESS pressure than R-22 does.  It compresses and cools with much less work than R-22.

Would you hafve any evidence for this article of faith? Sorry you can’t buy a new one like mine, any more.

Why would you want to buy a 40 watt 3 ft^3 fridge, when an 18.8 ft^3 Energy Star fridge/freezer only uses 1.08kWh/24h = 45 watts? Nick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering .. http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Response:

All mini-itx’s are 12 volt inputs on the cases I’ve seen and read about. The power level is so low they use external 120 vac – 12 volt DC "soap-on-a-rope" type converters , typically in the 40-50 watt range (the converter , not the mini-itx power draw). The cases have internal switchers to make the necessary atx voltages (3.3 , 5 +-12) from the 12 volt dc in

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance? I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Response:

check out http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All mini-itx’s are 12 volt inputs on the cases I’ve seen and read about. The power level is so low they use external 120 vac – 12 volt DC "soap-on-a-rope" type converters , typically in the 40-50 watt range (the converter , not the mini-itx power draw). The cases have internal switchers to make the necessary atx voltages (3.3 , 5 +-12) from the 12 volt dc in I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance? I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Response:

There is no need for this in most mini-itx cases .. they already come with a similar switcher in the case when you buy it http://www.axiontech.com/prdtpic.php?item=34633 shows a typical mini-itx case , already 12 volts input ready with pictures

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – check out http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels. All mini-itx’s are 12 volt inputs on the cases I’ve seen and read about. The power level is so low they use external 120 vac – 12 volt DC "soap-on-a-rope" type converters , typically in the 40-50 watt range (the converter , not the mini-itx power draw). The cases have internal switchers to make the necessary atx voltages (3.3 , 5 +-12) from the 12 volt dc in I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance? I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Response:

Why not warm the house with escaping flue heat? Or do you mean ducts?

Ducts. In Phila, we pay about 15 cents/kWh.

OUCH!  Georgia Power charges something like 3.2c/KwH, reinforcing my theory about MOVING SOUTH. I meet people going to "save power" by running an electric heater instead of lighting off their central heating system… Good idea, for a small room, or a heater under a desk. Do you have a separate home freezer?  These are the dumbest power hogs consumers own. Do they use more power than fridges?

Yes, they do.  The temperature differential is much more, not to mention the Btu load every time you put something in it that must be frozen.  I talked a friend out of his huge freezer full of veggies and his power bill dropped about $35/month, making veggies at Piggy Wiggy look really cheap by comparison.  These are depression-era senior citizens who just HAVE to have a storehouse of food in case it happens again. Not much is funnier than someone carefully packaging and freezing vegetables that sell for 59c a pound and packing them in a home freezer for $35/month in electric usage. Your freezer uses $35/30/0.05 = 23 kWh/day? Recent fridge/freezers use about 400 kWh/year, ie 1.08 kWh/day. Last week, my supermarket was selling porterhouse steak for $10.25 a pound, but every month or so, the price is closer to $3…

See?  Again, you’ve made a great case for moving South!  Steak is less than half that in South Carolina.  I think the higher paychecks in the North is just relative to the cost of living.   The damned Greenies in their drug-induced haze now prevent you from buying an R-12 refridgerator like mine that draws FORTY WATTS when it’s running.  R-12 runs on a LOT LESS pressure than R-22 does.  It compresses and cools with much less work than R-22. Would you hafve any evidence for this article of faith?

Americans can no longer buy R-12 and there are severe penalties for any refridgeration techs who just dump it into the air.  R-12 consumption is now near zero, at least in the USA.  The ozone hole is getting BIGGER at the same rate it has for many years because it is caused by the SOLAR WIND, not what little man uses in his Ford A/C. (For those with friends yachting to the Caribbean, R-12 is still around 89c/16 oz can in many island countries outside the USA….(c;) The cans I bought were made in TENNESSEE! Sorry you can’t buy a new one like mine, any more. Why would you want to buy a 40 watt 3 ft^3 fridge, when an 18.8 ft^3 Energy Star fridge/freezer only uses 1.08kWh/24h = 45 watts?

Go plug that beast into a 100 watt inverter, which can easily handle the 40 watt load and come back and tell us how well it runs. Bullshit……(c; Larry W4CSC No, no, Scotty!  I said, "Beam me a wrench.", not a WENCH! Kirk Out…..

Response:

<snip In Phila, we pay about 15 cents/kWh. OUCH!  Georgia Power charges something like

3.2c/KwH, reinforcing my theory about MOVING SOUTH.

But NOT South California.  13.5 cents under the allocation, 15.9 cents over. Do you have a separate home freezer?  These

are the dumbest power hogs consumers own.

Only in YOUR opinion!  Others do not agree! Do they use more power than fridges? Yes, they do.  The temperature differential is much more, not to mention the Btu load every time you put

something in it that must be frozen.  I talked a friend out of his huge

freezer full of veggies and his power bill dropped about $35/month, making

veggies at Piggy Wiggly look really cheap by comparison.  These are

depression-era senior citizens who just HAVE to have a storehouse of

food in case it happens again.

The poor guy. Now he travels to the store and depending on the gas used pays much more for food!  Not much savings there! There is no "Piggy Wiggly" in much of the country and Veggies often cost over a dollar a pound! They only drop to about $.60 in season! Not much is funnier than someone carefully

packaging and freezing vegetables that sell for 59c a pound and

packing them in a home freezer for $35/month in electric usage. Your freezer uses $35/30/0.05 = 23 kWh/day?

Recent fridge/freezers use about 400 kWh/year, i.e. 1.08 kWh/day. Last

week, my supermarket was selling porterhouse steak for $10.25 a

pound, but every month or so, the price is closer to $3… See?  Again, you’ve made a great case for moving

South!  Steak is less than half that in South Carolina.  I think the

higher paychecks in the North is just relative to the cost of living. The damned Greenies in their drug-induced haze

now prevent you from buying an R-12 refrigerator like mine that

draws FORTY WATTS when it’s running.  R-12 runs on a LOT LESS

pressure than R-22 does.  It compresses and cools with much less work than R-22. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Americans can no longer buy R-12 and there are

severe penalties for any refrigeration techs who just dump it into the air.  R-12 consumption is now near zero, at least in the

USA.  The ozone hole is getting BIGGER at the same rate it has for many years because it is caused by the SOLAR WIND, not what little man

uses in his Ford A/C. (For those with friends yachting to the

Caribbean, R-12 is still around 89c/16 oz can in many island countries

outside the USA….(c;) The cans I bought were made in TENNESSEE! Sorry you can’t buy a new one like mine, any more. Why would you want to buy a 40 watt 3 ft^3

fridge, when an 18.8 ft^3 Energy Star fridge/freezer only uses

1.08kWh/24h = 45 watts? Go plug that beast into a 100 watt inverter,

which can easily handle the 40 watt load and come back and tell us how well it runs. Bullshit……from Larry W4CSC

This is the kind of irrational thinking that invalidates your poorly thought out position. You are trying to confuse average power use with peak consumption.  We all know a compressor motor start requires more power than when running at a steady load. Plus the Freezer and fridge do not run continuously. I put a "KillaWatt" on my 16cu,ft. freezer and on my 12 cu,ft. Freezer.  In a month the freezer was less than the fridge.  Reason?  The freezer is not opened as often. BTW:  I pick up a side of beef twice a year at the farm for $.29 a pound.  More than saved the cost of power to run a freezer and a new freezer a year if I needed one!  But I still use the same freezer, over ten years later. Each individual needs to calculate savings on their life style decisions, not on some arbitrary judgment by strangers with an agenda (strange people?)

Response:

This is the biggest farce ever put on someone.  Sell them a $16 light bulb that’s bound to fail because of its complexity.

They are bound to fail.  But not any where near as often as  the lncandescent bulbs they replace.  I routinely buy them for $5. But incandescents fail so darn often.  I’ve been there, too…(c;  You’re in computers.  Let’s do some arithmetic…..

Please 60 watt light bulb that runs 10 hours a day for a 30 day month. 60 x 10 x 30 = 18,000 watt hours a month x .001 = 18 KwH x your electric rate.  SC, where I live, rips us off at 8c/KwH.  Lots pay less than half that.

Others pay more.  I just looked at my bill.  8 1/2 c/KwH.  During summer, when using the AC, I’m into a higher level and pay about 10c/KwH.   Plus I pay taxes on that rate.  And in summer, I pay a second time, to remove the heat with A/C.  Let’s make it 5c/KwH for the problem’s sake.

From http://www.courier-journal.com/business/news2003/04/23/biz-front-elec… "Coal-rich Kentucky again has lowest U.S. electrical rates " "Kentucky boasts the lowest rates in each area: 5.58 cents per kilowatt – hour for residential rates…" So you picked a number lower than the lowest cost state in the country. A reasonable number would be 10 c/KwH.  Or perhaps 15c/KwH would be more accurate? So, other than the cost of the bulb being overstated by a factor of 3, and the the cost of electricity being understated by a factor of 2, you did the math right.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no need for this in most mini-itx cases .. they already come with a similar switcher in the case when you buy it http://www.axiontech.com/prdtpic.php?item=34633 shows a typical mini-itx case , already 12 volts input ready with pictures check out http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels. All mini-itx’s are 12 volt inputs on the cases I’ve seen and read about. The power level is so low they use external 120 vac – 12 volt DC "soap-on-a-rope" type converters , typically in the 40-50 watt range (the converter , not the mini-itx power draw). The cases have internal switchers to make the necessary atx voltages (3.3 , 5 +-12) from the 12 volt dc in I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering .. http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance? I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Wow,cool! I’ve only seen a couple ITX systems at the local computer shop,I had assumed they used 120Vac,with the "normal" IEC connectors. I’ll be durned!

Response:

We build PC’s where I work and have monitored many for power consumption.  Power supply rating seldom seems to influence our current gear.  Having tested Athlon 1.3’s – Athlon1.8’s and P4 2.6’s all use roughly 115 watts in continuous use with very little change with drives active or idle, and very little change with differing power supplies. Mini-ITX mainboard tied to modest power supply I have tested at < 50 watts.  My notebooks have all run 25-40 watts display included.  Lcd monitors are great at < 40 watts active especially compared to my (antique) 19"crt running 110 active and 40watts standby. I suspect the Shuttles will chew similar power to your current PC’s, few   use the full rated supply capacity. Glenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

FYI – my new 17" monitor runs 90 watts hot and 5 standby.  Still quite a bit more than an LCD.  On the PC side the ITX’s save some of their power  by eliminating components.  You can do something similar by have outboard USB or firewire connected floppy, CDRW (or DVD) so that only the motherboard and hard drive are always hot.  Just plug in what you need, when you need it. ALSO – the high end video cards are real power hogs – even worse than the high end CPU’s. If you’r really serious about a desktop with low power consumption you’ll need to look at non-fan driven cooling.  There are a few heat pipe solutions that, combined with a big external radiator, can reduce or eliminate fans. Finally – look at the Apple boxes.  Jobs hates fans and some of their units are pretty miserly out of the box.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We build PC’s where I work and have monitored many for power consumption.  Power supply rating seldom seems to influence our current gear.  Having tested Athlon 1.3’s – Athlon1.8’s and P4 2.6’s all use roughly 115 watts in continuous use with very little change with drives active or idle, and very little change with differing power supplies. Mini-ITX mainboard tied to modest power supply I have tested at < 50 watts.  My notebooks have all run 25-40 watts display included.  Lcd monitors are great at < 40 watts active especially compared to my (antique) 19"crt running 110 active and 40watts standby. I suspect the Shuttles will chew similar power to your current PC’s, few   use the full rated supply capacity. Glenn My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

Two of the VIA Eden based mini-itx motherboards ARE fan-less , the 533 & 600 MHz versions … I have two of the 533 MHz (fan-less) , using laptop drives and are the http/ftp servers for my domain. Measured draw using power analyzers was 11 watts running disk tests , the highest consumption I have found. Via will be releasing in the next month 800Mhz and 1Ghz fanless systems , they have once again shrunk the die , lowering the power consumption allowing what was their fastest chips to now go fan-less ! http://www.via.com.tw/en/Digital%20Library/PR040210EdenESP8-10K.jsp Yes integration is a help in savings , but the VIA CPU is the key , only about 5 watts power usage. The only thing these little computers are NOT good for is gamming. On the other hand, office applications , programming and the like work just fine. We are at a point that the manufactures are inventing ways for the un-needed GHZ speeds , it’s all about marketing , not what is needed to get the job done. The only way an Via mini-itx could possible use 40 watts would be with a large 3.5" HD , a PCI card added on the riser and using the 1 GHz board and even that would have a difficult time pushing into 40 watt range. be careful , other manufactures are now making mini-itx motherboards that are socket-370 and socket-A and P4 capable. This means a power hungry PC in a small foot print. All the info I am writing about is for the VIA , Eden based mini-itx all in one mother boards http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp http://www.viavpsd.com/product/index.jsp http://www.solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf And lastly , in response to Mr. Einstein from GA … these motherboards cost in the 110.00 – 200.00 range , add memory / disk and case you have a complete PC. Even with a slim CD and OS your looking at 400.00 for a nice low power system , very easy to put together. Store bought PC’s are the biggest rip-off at all. It takes about 20 minutes to assemble the PC , insert the CD and let Windows install (another hour), if your going to be tackling ANY homepower project , you can handle building a PC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI – my new 17" monitor runs 90 watts hot and 5 standby.  Still quite a bit more than an LCD.  On the PC side the ITX’s save some of their power  by eliminating components.  You can do something similar by have outboard USB or firewire connected floppy, CDRW (or DVD) so that only the motherboard and hard drive are always hot.  Just plug in what you need, when you need it. ALSO – the high end video cards are real power hogs – even worse than the high end CPU’s. If you’r really serious about a desktop with low power consumption you’ll need to look at non-fan driven cooling.  There are a few heat pipe solutions that, combined with a big external radiator, can reduce or eliminate fans. Finally – look at the Apple boxes.  Jobs hates fans and some of their units are pretty miserly out of the box. We build PC’s where I work and have monitored many for power consumption.  Power supply rating seldom seems to influence our current gear.  Having tested Athlon 1.3’s – Athlon1.8’s and P4 2.6’s all use roughly 115 watts in continuous use with very little change with drives active or idle, and very little change with differing power supplies. Mini-ITX mainboard tied to modest power supply I have tested at < 50 watts.  My notebooks have all run 25-40 watts display included.  Lcd monitors are great at < 40 watts active especially compared to my (antique) 19"crt running 110 active and 40watts standby. I suspect the Shuttles will chew similar power to your current PC’s, few   use the full rated supply capacity. Glenn My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance?

Response:

I was led to believe that 70 – 90 watts was not typical. with a big hard drive, a cdrw and a few other goodies, the typical 4-50 watt units aren’t capable, and these are certified automobile safe. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no need for this in most mini-itx cases .. they already come with a similar switcher in the case when you buy it http://www.axiontech.com/prdtpic.php?item=34633 shows a typical mini-itx case , already 12 volts input ready with pictures check out http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels. All mini-itx’s are 12 volt inputs on the cases I’ve seen and read about. The power level is so low they use external 120 vac – 12 volt DC "soap-on-a-rope" type converters , typically in the 40-50 watt range (the converter , not the mini-itx power draw). The cases have internal switchers to make the necessary atx voltages (3.3 , 5 +-12) from the 12 volt dc in I’ve copied the via tech document to my server (took almost 15 minutes to down load form the via tw site !) , if anyone needs a copy http://solar-guppy.com/downloads/via_power.pdf This has a very detail description of the via mini-itx board by model and there exact power usage http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp mini-itx uses the via cpu chips , I run my severs for www.solar-guppy.com 24/7 , the headless servers use about 11 watts each (measured) you can read some about another user who is doing what you are considering ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home and office run 4 of them 24/7 and I do extensive programming and find the VIA to be just fine for programming and web stuff Here is the via info on power usage for their products , slow to download but has excellent detailed power summary for the mini-itx line My loving spouse and I are looking for ideas to conserve energy, with the goal being to minimize our consumption enough to save money, and adjust to that lifestyle before buying and maintaining a homehead, hopefully off the grid. We currently use mostly CFs… about 20 of them, and find them ok… hate the wait before they flicker on (Sam’s club- GE), and way to hard on the eyes for above the kitchen table… like burning a hole in the eyes, but can live with them in lamps with shades.  We leave little on when not in use. We don’t take too long in fridge to find stuff. We open blinds in the day, and close at night, and we’re about to purchase a "Kill a Watt" to see where else we’re spending some of our energy dollars on phantom loads. One BIG issue for us is computer use.  We have one HP PC as a server (no display) and two Dell desktops with CRTs.  I’ve been looking at XPC Shuttle form-factor PCs (very small and lower power requirements- 200W supplies), but also thinking about laptops.  I’m a web developer and my spouse is also getting into the industry. What do we know about power requirements of various computers and displays? Can you lend some guidance? I believe there are also ITX power supplies that run from 12 and/or 24VDC..I recall seeing one on a website somewhere? There are also normal size AT/ATX power supplies available for 12 to 48VDC.

Response:

Two of the VIA Eden based mini-itx motherboards ARE fan-less , the 533 & 600

..snipped And lastly , in response to Mr. Einstein from GA … these motherboards cost in the 110.00 – 200.00 range , add memory / disk and case you have a complete PC. Even with a slim CD and OS your looking at 400.00 for a nice low power system , very easy to put together. Store bought PC’s are the biggest rip-off at all. It takes about 20 minutes to assemble the PC , insert the CD and let Windows install (another hour), if your going to be tackling ANY homepower project , you can handle building a PC

Talk about store bought rip-offs, If you really want to safe money and improve your life, skip the windows OS and switch(upgrade) to a linux OS. You can find distribution tailored to about any use you can image, redhat, suse, mandrake etc.. Look a lycoris for home use as an example. Easy to install and use. You can save serious money because it includes every application you could possible need and it come with the freedom to use it. What good is it to have a low power pc powered up if it crashes. Al … snipped

Response:

While Linux is priced right (free) , it’s driver support is pale in comparison to Windows , what good is Linux if it won’t work on your hardware Windows has come along way from 95/98 and blue screens of death , Windows XP is stable , My servers runs for months and none of my reboots were unplanned or caused by XP. Installations was simple and has worked first try every time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two of the VIA Eden based mini-itx motherboards ARE fan-less , the 533 & 600 ..snipped And lastly , in response to Mr. Einstein from GA … these motherboards cost in the 110.00 – 200.00 range , add memory / disk and case you have a complete PC. Even with a slim CD and OS your looking at 400.00 for a nice low power system , very easy to put together. Store bought PC’s are the biggest rip-off at all. It takes about 20 minutes to assemble the PC , insert the CD and let Windows install (another hour), if your going to be tackling ANY homepower project , you can handle building a PC Talk about store bought rip-offs, If you really want to safe money and improve your life, skip the windows OS and switch(upgrade) to a linux OS. You can find distribution tailored to about any use you can image, redhat, suse, mandrake etc.. Look a lycoris for home use as an example. Easy to install and use. You can save serious money because it includes every application you could possible need and it come with the freedom to use it. What good is it to have a low power pc powered up if it crashes. Al … snipped

Response:

While Linux is priced right (free) , it’s driver support is pale in comparison to Windows , what good is Linux if it won’t work on your hardware

The newer versions of Redhat are getting better about support hardware,and even setting it up *for* you.It’s as easy to setup as Windoze. I just installed RH9 and was tickled pink with the install,it’s basically all automagic,it will even partition the drive(s) for you!! Leaps and bounds over 6.0 or 7.2.. Windows has come along way from 95/98 and blue screens of death , Windows XP is stable , My servers runs for months and none of my reboots were unplanned or caused by XP. Installations was simple and has worked first try every time.

XP is not stable for me,nor is 2K..ME,isn’t even worth installing,memory leaks,and all kinds of problems.I still have 98SE,and I havn’t had a bluescreen in a year (no joke!) with the machine running 24/7 with constant daily use.It gets a reboot about once a week,for the helluvit. The server,also running 98SE 24/7 gets a reboot once or twice a month,also for the helluvit.. If you want to try Linux,and don’t want (or know how?) to muck about with it all,check out Knoppix ( http://www.knoppix.net/about.php ) A linux install on a CD. just pop the CD in,and reboot.. Instant-Linux. Take the CD out,and reboot..back to Windows (or w/e). It doesn’t get any simpler than that. A similar version can be found at ( http://morphix.sourceforge.net/ ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two of the VIA Eden based mini-itx motherboards ARE fan-less , the 533 & 600 ..snipped And lastly , in response to Mr. Einstein from GA … these motherboards cost in the 110.00 – 200.00 range , add memory / disk and case you have a complete PC. Even with a slim CD and OS your looking at 400.00 for a nice low power system , very easy to put together. Store bought PC’s are the biggest rip-off at all. It takes about 20 minutes to assemble the PC , insert the CD and let Windows install (another hour), if your going to be tackling ANY homepower project , you can handle building a PC Talk about store bought rip-offs, If you really want to safe money and improve your life, skip the windows OS and switch(upgrade) to a linux OS. You can find distribution tailored to about any use you can image, redhat, suse, mandrake etc.. Look a lycoris for home use as an example. Easy to install and use. You can save serious money because it includes every application you could possible need and it come with the freedom to use it. What good is it to have a low power pc powered up if it crashes. Al … snipped

Response:

While linux is mostly free as in free beer, I like the free as in free speech. One of the reasons I like off-grid power is that I feel a freedom from the large corporate control. Linux gives me that same freedom when I’m working on the computer. have you ever read the microsoft End-user-license; and if so which version. I have never installed windows XP but I have heard that it only runs for 30 days and then you have to call microsoft and request their permission to use the product that you bought. I have also heard that if you upgrade your PC you have to get their permission again. I do know lots of folks that say it crashes a lot. Most of these folks are heavy users but a lot are just running office apps. I glad to hear that you have had more luck. I have used windows for years in the corporate environment and have install and repaired a lot of windows systems but now I’m windows free. I wont spend a minute helping folks fix their windows system but I’ll spend all day helping them get off windows. It is sort of like the power companies offering energy-efficient appliances, its easier and better for the environment than building more nuclear power plants. The driver concern is a old memory from history. You have a good memory if you remember that problem. Windows XP has a bigger problem with drivers. I was unable to use a lot of my hardware. Perfectly good PC but not supported by microsoft. The linux folks have an improving world. Most 1st class hardware now has linux drivers. You can look at as, do you want to learn about the next generation stuff or the last generation stuff. I dont know where you are but I think Linux is more popular in Europe and the rest of the world than in the US. Take care and may we all always have choices. Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While Linux is priced right (free) , it’s driver support is pale in comparison to Windows , what good is Linux if it won’t work on your hardware Windows has come along way from 95/98 and blue screens of death , Windows XP is stable , My servers runs for months and none of my reboots were unplanned or caused by XP. Installations was simple and has worked first try every time. Two of the VIA Eden based mini-itx motherboards ARE fan-less , the 533 & 600 ..snipped And lastly , in response to Mr. Einstein from GA … these motherboards cost in the 110.00 – 200.00 range , add memory / disk and case you have a complete PC. Even with a slim CD and OS your looking at 400.00 for a nice low power system , very easy to put together. Store bought PC’s are the biggest rip-off at all. It takes about 20 minutes to assemble the PC , insert the CD and let Windows install (another hour), if your going to be tackling ANY homepower project , you can handle building a PC Talk about store bought rip-offs, If you really want to safe money and improve your life, skip the windows OS and switch(upgrade) to a linux OS. You can find distribution tailored to about any use you can image, redhat, suse, mandrake etc.. Look a lycoris for home use as an example. Easy to install and use. You can save serious money because it includes every application you could possible need and it come with the freedom to use it. What good is it to have a low power pc powered up if it crashes. Al … snipped

Response:

While linux is mostly free as in free beer, I like the free as in free speech. One of the reasons I like off-grid power is that I feel a freedom from the large corporate control. Linux gives me that same freedom when I’m working on the computer. have you ever read the microsoft End-user-license; and if so which version. I have never installed windows XP but I have heard that it only runs for 30 days and then you have to call microsoft and request their permission to use the product that you bought. I have also heard that if you upgrade your PC you have to get their permission again. I do know lots of folks that say it crashes a lot. Most of these folks are heavy users but a lot are just running office apps. I glad to hear that you have had more luck.

It runs fine after it is registered.  No permission required.  Just a simple phone call or internet communication.  Not worth getting your undies in a bunch over, unless you are a theif and want to steal the software. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used windows for years in the corporate environment and have install and repaired a lot of windows systems but now I’m windows free. I wont spend a minute helping folks fix their windows system but I’ll spend all day helping them get off windows. It is sort of like the power companies offering energy-efficient appliances, its easier and better for the environment than building more nuclear power plants. The driver concern is a old memory from history. You have a good memory if you remember that problem. Windows XP has a bigger problem with drivers. I was unable to use a lot of my hardware. Perfectly good PC but not supported by microsoft. The linux folks have an improving world. Most 1st class hardware now has linux drivers. You can look at as, do you want to learn about the next generation stuff or the last generation stuff.

Windows XP supports just about anything worth supporting.  Ancient hardware is not supported in a few cases, but that is not a windows problem, as the manufacturers of the equipment generally provide the drivers.  If you want to use an old MFM hard drive, you are out of luck.  Anything made within the last ten years is almost certainly supported, unless the manufacturer decided not to for some reason. I dont know where you are but I think Linux is more popular in Europe and the rest of the world than in the US. Take care and may we all always have choices. Al

<snip

Response:

…snipped I have never installed windows XP but I have heard that it only runs for 30 days and then you have to call microsoft and request their permission to use the product that you bought. I have also heard that if you upgrade your PC you have to get their permission again. I do know lots of folks that say it crashes a lot. Most of these folks are heavy users but a lot are just running office apps. I glad to hear that you have had more luck. It runs fine after it is registered.  No permission required.  Just a simple phone call or internet communication.

You have a lot more faith in the "system" than I do. Just hope that in the future they are still there and still want to give you permission. You can call it registration if you want to. I guess that make it sound less controlling. It is very easy to see a situation where you will not be able to use the product that you paid for because of a corporate shake up, change in policy, or simply the wrong person is on vacation. They may decide to force you to pay them more money for a bug-fix and to enforce that they will simply stop giving you permission to use it or the permission will timeout and you will be stuck. Good luck, I hope it works for you. I value my freedom and I do not think that people that value freedom are crooks and lets hope that society does not start thinking of them or treating them as crooks. I strongly protest when someone wants to take my freedom away. We should all protest at all times and for every minor attempt no matter how small. All these small freedom grabs add up. When was the last time a freedom or right was every returned to you? Sorry to go on, I really just want to continue to work on home power system. I just get upset when I see people just turning over power and control to faceless corporation for the smallest of reasons. In the USA we have lost so many freedoms in the last 4 long years that to let a corporation take any more is very to take.   Not worth getting your undies in a bunch over,

I do get worried when my "undies" get in a bunch. I worry that a wedgie is coming next:-)   unless you are a theif and want to steal the software.

I won’t dignify that was a response. Trying to insult a perfect stranger is in poor taste. I start with the assumption that everyone is honest and treat them that way until given reason not to. It is the old- fashion american way, innocent until proven guilty. Everyone should be treated as an individual. just as an aside, I worked at a company that had that as one of their prime statements, Treat everyone as an individual. But then they had a manages manual that told you how to do that for everyone and you were required to do it only that way. They never saw the inconsistency in that. Have a good day, Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have used windows for years in the corporate environment and have

Response:

Question:

I designed one one time that used ultrasound to clean the cloths. It would not have to move all that water around, so it would be much more energy efficient. It was also equipped with a microwave to dry the cloths, also much more efficient. ButI live in the USA, where energy is cheap and we waste it. I doubt if any USAmanufacturer would be interested it it.

Response:

More efficient refrigerators are nice, it’s an excuse for politicians to argue that a new power plant should be built elsewhere. Menwith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all: Just some quick questions: 1. In the past 10 years, how much have been changed for the technologies that were being used on the new models of dryers and washers, especially for those "energy star" (energy saving) models?? 2. Will we expect even more dramatic changes (and technological improvement) for the technologies being used on cloth washers and dryers in the next 3-5 years?? If so, what are likely to happen in the next 3-5 days? More energy saving or even capability to link with computers (blue-tooth)?? I know that in general (especially saving energy), front-loading washers are much better than top-loading ones. But how about durability and reliability? What’s the average life of front-loading washers, say, made by Whirlpool or Kenmore?? Thanks!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all: Just some quick questions: 1. In the past 10 years, how much have been changed for the technologies that were being used on the new models of dryers and washers, especially for those "energy star" (energy saving) models?? 2. Will we expect even more dramatic changes (and technological improvement) for the technologies being used on cloth washers and dryers in the next 3-5 years?? If so, what are likely to happen in the next 3-5 days? More energy saving or even capability to link with computers (blue-tooth)?? I know that in general (especially saving energy), front-loading washers are much better than top-loading ones. But how about durability and reliability? What’s the average life of front-loading washers, say, made by Whirlpool or Kenmore??

Front loaders seem to be just as good, though being European have often had slightly higher prices.  Fron loaders don’t need quite as much water as the tumblin action ensures everything gets submerged at one point or another. The more advance ‘condensing dryers’ use a reverse cycle heat pump to be more energy efficient (by a factor of 3-4) and condense the steam back into water thus not fogging up your house.   In many European town houses and flats the front end loader is integrated with a condensing tumble dryer.   The unit is so small and inocuous i is fitted into the kitchen next to the dishwasher.   I quite like these: you can throw in towells, socks, underwear and sheets and they come up not only washed but dried. Top loaders have also improved, they often use tubidity sensors to estimate the dirt in the clothes and therefore do not use excessive water if the clothes are clean.  Some of them like Hitachi use blasts of water jets and air to eliminate agittators. I noted that the Wifes of the German engineers I once worked with as an expatriate emplyee regarsed old conventional American and Australian top loaders as savage and likjely to rip of buttons and damge delicate clothing. Both types often use electronic variable speed motors and thus eliminate gear boxes and belt drives. I have no knowledge of what kenmore or whirlpool washing machines are like.  I do know that Whirlpool is often made in Germany in dishwashers and that these are excellent as they have to compete with Miele and Bosch etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks!

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Hi, all: Just some quick questions: 1. In the past 10 years, how much have been changed for the technologies that were being used on the new models of dryers and washers, especially for those "energy star" (energy saving) models?? 2. Will we expect even more dramatic changes (and technological improvement) for the technologies being used on cloth washers and dryers in the next 3-5 years?? If so, what are likely to happen in the next 3-5 days? More energy saving or even capability to link with computers (blue-tooth)?? I know that in general (especially saving energy), front-loading washers are much better than top-loading ones. But how about durability and reliability? What’s the average life of front-loading washers, say, made by Whirlpool or Kenmore?? Thanks!

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Question:

 Sun Frost  is advertised as the most efficient refrigerator . The RF19 model consuming 770 watt per day at 70  degree or 281 KWH yearly.  I purchased a Sears Kenmore  model 61982   18.8 cu ft  .  Gov rating on consumption  is 417  KWH  yearly.  Well i covered  it with  1 " r 7.2   foamboard and recessed it.  my last 10 day KWH  use  was 560  watt per day or 204 KWH  yearly, measured with a Kill-A -Watt.    Now im at 69 degree , single , But cook all food.  I Beleive the KWH Gov rating  is   to replicate a family   and yearly temperature swings, so when its warm it will consume more in its ratings.  The Sun Frost has a much higher 90 degree consumption quote  of  1.09 KWH daily  or 398 KWH yearly,  And is this reflective of a familys use ?  I dont think so……  So who makes the most Efficient refrigerator?? Yes,  Sears is  better than most people think. I feel its underated and less than 1/2 the cost. And Sears delivers free,  { sometimes }

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Sun Frost  is advertised as the most efficient refrigerator . The RF19 model consuming 770 watt per day…

Nonono. Energy units are watt-HOURS per day. Nick

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I know you are thinking , well he insulated it. Yes  , not the back yet , and 2 more inches will go on for r 21.6    The point is anyone can do this, insulate it better and recess it . making  even better than my present KWH  costs.  And the initial cost of the Sears is acceptable, as I  feel the  Sun Frost is not.  Payback period for a Sunfrost ? What payback !  

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Nick ,Who uses energy units Where  are they displayed for anything.  I have never heard of that term

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OK nick you are  right, I  printed it wrong, but I beleive my numbers and  theory are correct

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sun Frost  is advertised as the most efficient refrigerator . The RF19 model consuming 770 watt per day at 70  degree or 281 KWH yearly. I purchased a Sears Kenmore  model 61982   18.8 cu ft  .  Gov rating on consumption  is 417  KWH  yearly. Well i covered  it with  1 " r 7.2   foamboard and recessed it.  my last 10 day KWH  use  was 560  watt per day or 204 KWH  yearly, measured with a Kill-A -Watt.   Now im at 69 degree , single , But cook all food.  I Beleive the KWH Gov rating  is   to replicate a family   and yearly temperature swings, so when its warm it will consume more in its ratings.  The Sun Frost has a much higher 90 degree consumption quote  of  1.09 KWH daily  or 398 KWH yearly,  And is this reflective of a familys use ?  I dont think so…… So who makes the most Efficient refrigerator?? Yes,  Sears is  better than most people think. I feel its underated and less than 1/2 the cost. And Sears delivers free,  { sometimes }

Up until the early 1990s, sunfrost had a major edge.  Around that time tere was a competition for the most energy efficient model refrigerator with a large cash prize, and the major manufacturers got on board the efficiency bandwagon. We recently bought a 25 cu ft refrigerator from sears that uses about 1/2 (or less) the energy of our old 19 cu ft model. Using foamboard can be counterproductive on some refrigerators, the smaller units especially place the condensing coils just under the surface of the sideas and top and depend on airflow over them to carry away the excess heat.

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IIRC, the cheap fridge I bought was listed as using something like $60 a year worth of electricity, so that would be like 600 kwh per year. The next step up in efficiency would have saved about $20 a year in electricity but cost something like $300 more.  Not much of a bargain IMO, unless you are on very expesnive electricity.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sun Frost  is advertised as the most efficient refrigerator . The RF19 model consuming 770 watt per day at 70  degree or 281 KWH yearly.  I purchased a Sears Kenmore  model 61982   18.8 cu ft  .  Gov rating on consumption  is 417  KWH  yearly.  Well i covered  it with  1 " r 7.2   foamboard and recessed it.  my last 10 day KWH  use  was 560  watt per day or 204 KWH  yearly, measured with a Kill-A -Watt.  Now im at 69 degree , single , But cook all food.  I Beleive the KWH Gov rating  is   to replicate a family   and yearly temperature swings, so when its warm it will consume more in its ratings.  The Sun Frost has a much higher 90 degree consumption quote  of  1.09 KWH daily  or 398 KWH yearly,  And is this reflective of a familys use ?  I dont think so……  So who makes the most Efficient refrigerator?? Yes,  Sears is  better than most people think. I feel its underated and less than 1/2 the cost. And Sears delivers free,  { sometimes }

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So who makes the most Efficient refrigerator?? Yes,  Sears is  better

Not us, any more.  The greenies have seen to that……. Out in my stepvan electronics shop sits an OLD Norcold bar fridge. It’s compressor isn’t a real compressor, at all.  It’s a vibrating piston that hums.  It draws 40 watts the few minutes per hour it runs. The little compressor is a cylinder about 8" tall and 3" in diameter. There’s only one electrical contact.  The other one is the case of the compressor, itself.  It runs on 40VAC 50-60 Hz, probably resonant around 55 Hz to cover both.  The 40VAC comes from a little transformer, only slightly larger than a doorbell transformer, mounted to the back.  This allows Norcold to simply swap transformers to match the voltage of any country the unit sold for.  It also will make 3 trays of ice cubes in its tiny freezer compartment in about 50 minutes.  It runs off my 500W inverter, 24/7/365 off my 330AH golf cart "house batteries".   The key to this little beast is a forbidden product blamed for the solar wind blowing away the ozone layer over the South Pole.  Its sin is it runs on 69c/pound R-12 refridgerant, not $12/12 oz R134a.  R-12 lets this tiny compressor make so much cold from so little power because R-12 runs so low pressures. R-12 is gone now.  The ozone hole keeps getting larger because taking R-12 away from us was a bullshit lie to raise prices by 23 times. It’s all caused by my little 1960’s fridge, not the billions of gallons of JET FUEL burned in the air, 24/7/365, you see. Horseshit. Larry W4CSC Is it just me or did the US and UK just capture 1/3 of the world’s sweetest oil supply?  What idiot wants to GIVE IT BACK?!!

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I’m fairly negatively impressed that even the "new, more efficient" regiferators of recent years still have the most inefficent placement of the compressor and coils (hot parts). This was done efficently in the 1930’s – hot parts on top, cold down below, arranged for excellent airflow through the hot coils. Now you have a hot compressor underneath a cold fridge, and the coils either behind or (worse yet) wrapped all around the outside under the skin (so no additional insulation an be added). Thus, bottom freezer models are more inefficient becasue the freezer (coldest) is placed near the compressor (hottest). — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

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I’m fairly negatively impressed that even the "new, more efficient" regiferators of recent years still have the most inefficent placement of the compressor and coils (hot parts). This was done efficently in the 1930’s – hot parts on top, cold down below, arranged for excellent airflow through the hot coils. Now you have a hot compressor underneath a cold fridge, and the coils either behind or (worse yet) wrapped all around the outside under the skin (so no additional insulation an be added). Thus, bottom freezer models are more inefficient becasue the freezer (coldest) is placed near the compressor (hottest). — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

So I should look for a used commercial frig that has the compressor on top? Haven’t looked at them before but (from my days in the restaurant biz) as I remember it many of them do have the exaust grill on top and storage all the way to the bottom so they must be mounting the "hot" parts on top.

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So I should look for a used commercial frig that has the compressor on top?

Depends. If the unit is new enough to have a newer type, more efficienct compressor, perhaps yes. An older one might lose enough efficiency in the compessor end to fail to make up for good thermal design in placement of parts. Hard to know for sure, since I suspect that commercial units are probably exempt from the sort of energy labeling that consumer units have had for the past several years. Then again, they are generally built so that you could replace the compressor. All the free-stanging commercial units I’ve met would want a lot more insulation – only walk-ins seem to get heavy insulation. I’ve often wondered if it might not be more efficient to put in a very well insulated walk-in (with the compressor unit located outdoors). On the one hand, it’s large, but on the other hand, there’s no problem insulating the living heck out of it. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

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I agree they could get  more efficiency with a top coil- compressor . But the unit i have is rated the most efficient  at  Energy Star. I saw a few top coil recessed  models with low yearly KWH costs , Maybe Sub Zero. But they were the nice expensive ones.

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Now you have a hot compressor underneath a cold fridge, and the coils either behind or (worse yet) wrapped all around the outside under the skin (so no additional insulation an be added).

This is one of the touted advantages of the SunFrost models, the compressor is on top.  Also, lots of insulation, a lower-powered compressor (higher efficiency, but takes longer to cool down) and DC options to eliminate inverter efficiency losses.  Significantly higher prices though… — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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I’m fairly negatively impressed that even the "new, more efficient" regiferators of recent years still have the most inefficent placement of the compressor and coils (hot parts). This was done efficently in the 1930’s – hot parts on top, cold down below, arranged for excellent airflow through the hot coils.

It would seem that room temperature air flooded over the hot parts would be only somewhat warmer, and that extra heat could be easily compensated for with a little extra insulation. Then the works can be on the bottom, which is practical since that space would otherwise be closer to the floor than is desirable for shelving. Sunfrost claims there’s an efficiency advantage to top mounting, it’s probably little more than marketing hype. Wayne

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I’m fairly negatively impressed that even the "new, more efficient" regiferators of recent years still have the most inefficent placement of the compressor and coils (hot parts). This was done efficently in the 1930’s – hot parts on top, cold down below, arranged for excellent airflow through the hot coils.

Air near the floor tends to be cooler, and hot coils with a chimney above could have more natural airflow. Sunfrosts have "thermal accumulators," refrigerant heat stores to allow the hot side to cool even when the compressor isn’t running, an idea from the 30s that’s disappeared from most modern fridges. Nick

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Out in my stepvan electronics shop sits an OLD Norcold bar fridge. It’s compressor isn’t a real compressor, at all.  It’s a vibrating piston that hums.  It draws 40 watts the few minutes per hour it runs. The little compressor is a cylinder about 8" tall and 3" in diameter. There’s only one electrical contact.  The other one is the case of the compressor, itself.  It runs on 40VAC 50-60 Hz, probably resonant around 55 Hz to cover both.  The 40VAC comes from a little transformer, only slightly larger than a doorbell transformer, mounted to the back.  This allows Norcold to simply swap transformers to match the voltage of any country the unit sold for.  It also will make 3 trays of ice cubes in its tiny freezer compartment in about 50 minutes.  It runs off my 500W inverter, 24/7/365 off my 330AH golf cart "house batteries".

I ran one of those in the ’80s, except mine had an internal inverter from 12V. Not bad, but the SunFrost RF12 that replaced it cooled eight times the volume for slightly less power overall. In hot weather, the SunFrost was far more efficient – the Norcold would run constantly and still not be able to maintain the set temperature. You must live in a cool climate! Loren

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Wouldn’t a chest design be more efficient than a standard upright design? I know it wouldn’t sell because of current kitchen design. Q

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Wouldn’t a chest design be more efficient than a standard upright design?

   Actually, modern uprights are damn efficient.  When I finally had to replace a 35+ year old upright last winter, the new one – about the same size – runs only 700 watts, easy for generator use! <BDissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I<A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com"ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A</b</i

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Wouldn’t a chest design be more efficient than a standard upright design?   Actually, modern uprights are damn efficient.  When I finally had to replace a 35+ year old upright last winter, the new one – about the same size – runs only 700 watts, easy for generator use!

I think you missed the point that I think he was intending to make… other things being equal, a chest design is more efficient because it does not spill the cold air on the floor when opened. The falling cold air is replaced by warm room air, which then has to be cooled when the door is closed. — Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"

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I think you missed the point that I think he was intending to make… other things being equal, a chest design is more efficient because it does not spill the cold air on the floor when opened. The falling cold air is replaced by warm room air, which then has to be cooled when the door is closed.

Hmmm, the mass of the air would be one factor and the humidity would be the other.  Of the two, I’m guessing the high humidity would be more important, since the humidity has to be condensed into liquid, which could require significantly more energy.

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I think you missed the point that I think he was intending to make… other things being equal, a chest design is more efficient because it does not spill the cold air on the floor when opened. The falling cold air is replaced by warm room air, which then has to be cooled when the door is closed. Hmmm, the mass of the air would be one factor and the humidity would be the other.  Of the two, I’m guessing the high humidity would be more important, since the humidity has to be condensed into liquid, which could require significantly more energy.

Where I live "we don’t have humidity", but I see your point. It just makes the case stronger. — Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t a chest design be more efficient than a standard upright design?   Actually, modern uprights are damn efficient.  When I finally had to replace a 35+ year old upright last winter, the new one – about the same size – runs only 700 watts, easy for generator use! I think you missed the point that I think he was intending to make… other things being equal, a chest design is more efficient because it does not spill the cold air on the floor when opened. The falling cold air is replaced by warm room air, which then has to be cooled when the door is closed.

True.  And a ‘full’ unit has less free air to ’spill’.  Which is why a unit that is full or nearly so runs more economically than an empty. daestrom

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…And a ‘full’ unit has less free air to ’spill’.  Which is why a unit that is full or nearly so runs more economically than an empty.

OTOH, it has more surface to instantly condense water vapor from room air with a 50 F dewpoint when the door is open. Nick

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…And a ‘full’ unit has less free air to ’spill’.  Which is why a unit that is full or nearly so runs more economically than an empty. OTOH, it has more surface to instantly condense water vapor from room air with a 50 F dewpoint when the door is open. Nick

I’m also reconsidering the benefits of compressor on the top refrigerators. Since cold air sinks, and the inch or so closest to the floor is often the coldest part of a room (especially in slab houses like mine or houses using a wood stove for heat), doesn’t it make more sense to place the compressor and condenser coils there than up near the ceiling where heat from cooking wants to pool?  It isn’t as though designers don’t know how to use insulation or fans to redirect heat.  The major issue I see is that dirt is more likely to collect and remain if the coils are hidden.  Perhaps sunfrost salesmen are blowing hot air?

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…And a ‘full’ unit has less free air to ’spill’.  Which is why a unit that is full or nearly so runs more economically than an empty. OTOH, it has more surface to instantly condense water vapor from room air with a 50 F dewpoint when the door is open.

Yeah, right…. So if you leave the door open all day, the full one will use more energy than the empty one? But if you open the door to fetch something then close it, the total amount of water vapor let into the ‘full’ one is less.  And in both, the water vapor that gets in will eventually be condensed.  Okay, maybe the ‘full’ one will condense the vapor faster after you shut the door, while the ‘empty’ one might take a half hour or more.  But the ‘empty’ one will have more water vapor to condense, therefore more energy will have to be removed by the cooling unit. daestrom

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Question:

my thoughts are with you! stay safe!!

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my thoughts are with you! stay safe!!

Good thing Bush did away with that evil stupid energy star conservation air conditioners, frigerators, dryers, washing machines, lightbulbs, vehicles, computers and all the rest that Clinton/Gore are on about. Bush is saving the day with real energy reform in building bigger candles and giving us this wonderfull future from his super vision. His father – Poppa Bush – had the same super vision for his really rich friends. Is this a great country or what. 4 more years, 4 more years. sumbuddie on da watchtower

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Thank you Panther

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my thoughts are with you! stay safe!!

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hi alan what are those big candles you are talking about?? i haven’t been much on my feet lately, so i did got the news on french tv about the night without lights but no talk about big candles ??? gee, he already is stealing the oil from iraq, what more does he wants??? hope you are well phoenix — . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my thoughts are with you! stay safe!! Good thing Bush did away with that evil stupid energy star conservation air conditioners, frigerators, dryers, washing machines, lightbulbs, vehicles, computers and all the rest that Clinton/Gore are on about. Bush is saving the day with real energy reform in building bigger candles and giving us this wonderfull future from his super vision. His father – Poppa Bush – had the same super vision for his really rich friends. Is this a great country or what. 4 more years, 4 more years. sumbuddie on da watchtower

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Question:

I think I heard that freezers pull a lot of current and thus use a lot of power. People living on PV’s can save a lot by using refrigerators that aren’t combined with freezers. Do I remember correctly? Anyone have any recommendations for refrigerators that use low amounts of electricity? Thank you.

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most of your smaller energy star units, like the ones found at sears, would have to be run for many years before losing the cost/benefit race with specialized units for offgrid applications. the difference in cost buys a lot of pv. — Steve Spence www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I heard that freezers pull a lot of current and thus use a lot of power. People living on PV’s can save a lot by using refrigerators that aren’t combined with freezers. Do I remember correctly? Anyone have any recommendations for refrigerators that use low amounts of electricity? Thank you.

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I think I heard that freezers pull a lot of current and thus use a lot of power. People living on PV’s can save a lot by using refrigerators that aren’t combined with freezers. Do I remember correctly? Anyone have any recommendations for refrigerators that use low amounts of electricity?

Take a look at http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=refrig.pr_refrigerators, specifically look on the right hand side for the PDF or Excel spreadsheet detailing energy consumption.  You’ll find that the specialty refrigerators like Sunfrost are very efficient in comparison, but you’ll also not that there are some comercial models that are really good too.  Specifically there is a 18.8cuft Kenmore made by Whirlpool that is 20% better than the standard. Next year I would expect more refrigerators in the 15%+ range, because that is going to be the new requirement to be labeled energy star. — Dan Metcalf dan at metcalfsdotcom http://www.metcalfs.com The Sun!  Your source of energy for 5 billion years!   Free while supplies last!

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Check out the energy star ratings for refrigerators: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_index Some products such as Sun Frost have a separate compressor for refrigerator and freezer: http://www.sunfrost.com/ Of course, this costs. The new generation of refrigerators with scroll compressors and more insulation is considerably more efficient than prior years’ models. There are many models commonly available which use less than 1 kWhr per day, which is truly amazing. In a region with three hours of sun average per day, this requires 350-400 watts of PV (including efficiency losses). At US $4 per watt, this comes to 400×4=$1600 of PV to power a regular refrigerator. We are at the point now where it may no longer pay to get exotic refrigerators with how efficient conventional energy star ones have become. If you have more sun or tax credits or rebates on solar, it pays even less. Anyone have any recommendations for – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – refrigerators that use low amounts of electricity?

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Question:

Before you committ to a contractor, read the latest Consumer Reports to get the skinny on vinyl siding. When it comes to windows, there’s Andersen, Pella, and probably a few other really good regional brands, and then there’s the contractor junk. Best advice is go with products that have stood the test of time and a contractor with a reputation for good workmanship. Regarding the latter, you may need to contact former clients or view his work in progress with the help of a consultant. It may even save you some $ if you work with an architect. HTH Joe

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I’ve Googled the web and Googled newsgroups, so I know that the general consensus runs somewhat against vinyl windows and (more so) vinyl siding.  If I was restoring that Craftsman style house I sometimes fantasize about, or building a new, modern dream house I assure you that the word ‘vinyl’ would not be found near ‘window,’ ’siding,’ or even ‘flooring.’   What I’m doing, is fixing up a 1970s tri-level with shoddy-from-day one aluminum siding and windows, in a neighborhood where vinyl is *most definitely* an improvement.   After getting quotes from various contractors, I’m trying to decide between two of them, either of which I think would do a good job.  Both of their quotes were significantly less than other contractors who really, really pushed to get us to sign THAT VERY DAY to lock in the "huge discount" they were prepared to give us. I must note that I have strong interest in energy conservation, so I specifically requested Energy Star qualified window products.  We are replacing sliding windows with new sliders.  Also replacing gutters and trim.  The contractors under consideration are licensed, insured, members of the BBB (no complaints) and do their own work (no subcontractors). Contractor #1 seems to have superior products.  His quote is $3,600 higher. Contractor #2’s bid includes a ‘time-limited’ 10% discount (his quote would still be somewhat lower without that discount).  I have sufficient funds to go either way and am willing to pay more if what it buys is quality and function. So I’m asking for opinions (details follow): Are these good products?  Do you it be reasonable to pay the higher price?  Should I keep looking around? Contractor #1 provided references from neighborhoods a bit more upscale than mine. Quote was made by owner/president.  He has worked in windows and siding 38 years. Michigan Remodeling Association member.  They do  windows, siding and trim, gutters, and doors. (Contractor is listed in the search via Crane website.) Sunrise windows, "Ultra Plus" glass (low-E, argon filled, with special heat coating).   This window is constructed with fusion-welded virgin vinyl polyurethane-filled extrusions.   This window has extremely good test specs, and was also featured by a different contractor (who is not in consideration).  The heat-lamp demonstration was impressive.  Full lifetime, non-prorated warrantee.  Energy Star compliant. *Tilt-in sashes (both sides) for cleaning.*  Garden window option priced at an additional $900. http://www.sunrise-windows.com/index.htm Crane-board solid core siding over Tyvek.  Panels are triple 6" with interlocking, integral foam insulation backing, Energy Star compliant.   Matching window and corner trim is also solid core.  Quote includes replacing as much as 50′ of rotten wood with no extra charge.  Siding feature reinforced nailing hem.  R-value 4. http://www.cranesiding.com/CraneBoard.html Contractor #2 has done work in my neighborhood.  Quote was made by salesman.   Family-owned company, in business since 1965.   They ’specialize in’ windows and doorwalls, siding and trim, gutters, roofing, patio enlcosures and awnings. Republic windows.  Low-E glass, argon filled.  Fusion-welded, metal-reinforce frames. Lifetime warrantee (brochure does not specify non-prorated).  Energy Star compliant.   Sashes lift out for cleaning. Garden window option priced at an additional $1530. http://www.republicwindows.com/ Alside Odyssey Plus siding over