Question:
A lot of this may be redundant for those of you who have been helping us out/following our progress,…. but its a sort of status report with more questions… Well,… Our first attempts at using a single supplier for our system is not panning out so well. We called in the main components to a supplier we thought we were going to go with based on information found on the net, HomePower Magazine, as well as info and pricing on their site. After comparing our total system cost (not item by item) with the others we looked at they seemed to be the best and also seemed to have good things said (what we could find) about them. This was Friday am. We were told we would be called by the end of the day with a quote along with any suggestions on the setup we had laid out. Friday 4pm no word, gave a call and no info, we were told even though it was a holiday we would receive the information by fax Monday. Monday came an went, nothing (didnt mind what so ever due to holiday). Teusday 3pm, no word, gave another call and were asked (in response to our 1200watts of panels, inverter, 12 – L16-HC and all other associated items),.. "oh yeah, I got it right here, this is the grid tied system with no battery storage right? Um.. we made a few changes and are calling out 28 panels instead of the 8 BP150s that you setup…" I knew we were talking to an "order taker" as on Friday he told us he had only been there for a month or so and would get the information we gave him out to "one of his technicians". When I first called I explained we had a lot of shop loads which were pretty tough to quantify but based on info we had we were figuring 4kwh/day would probably more than suit our needs and we would be remote, no grid, and gave the location where the system would be installed. Somehow that got translated into a 28 panel (assuming 60watts each) grid tied system (perhaps because I called out an SW4024) with no battery storage (which I dont know what they thought we were going to do with 12 L16-HC’s on the quote). At this point I am really frustrated. He told us, "the technician said the system you laid out doesnt come anywhere near what your looking for". I asked for some clarification on this but he really didnt know what to tell me and was fumbling around a bit on the phone. I asked if he could have the "technician" call me to go over it. Again I was told he would call me right back. It is now 24 hours later,.. no word. At this point I am back to feeling like I just have to be confident in my system, part it out, and figure it out from there. I dont want to sound like I have given up after one supplier but I havent really found a single source that is fairly competetive on the whole system. For most, a few items seem to push them way up on price. Either a very high per/watt panel price, little or no discount on Trace, etc.. At this point (4 weeks from the moving date) I know I have asked all of your opinion on this before but would appreciate any last bits of input you may have as I am feeling like that is the route we may be going. We are thinking about changing the panels from the BP150’s to a smaller panel and getting more based on input that has brought up the points of shipping, and if one breaks we would loose 1/8th of our system. We are having a hard time not looking at the Photowatt 100’s/105’s that are available right now for 3.89 – 3.90/watt from solatron with shipping included. This would reduce the cost of the array’s by 400 to 600 dollars (basically pays for the mounts) not to mention the shipping. Additionally, we have found some widely varying prices on SW4024 inverters like 2563.00 on the low end and full list price from places like RealGoods(know about them) and anywhere inbetween from other places. As always the place that seems to have the low price on one item doesnt have the low one on half of the other things which is acceptable as we have only been comparing the prices for an entire system from a given supplier not component by component. This is to say that we have basically priced this system out about 6 times item by item and then compared the totals of each company. Then we compare the price if we go with multiple suppliers (losing some support I guess) and the price goes even lower. My head is spinning. I have no way to quantify the value of any of their "design service" as all have said "we have a handfull of example systems on our site/in our catalog, just pick the one closest to you and add or subtract panels and batteries as neccesary". This, while the example systems are handy for reference, doesnt seem like much design service to me. Here is the main components of the system we have laid out currently: -12 – Photowatt 105 panels (1260watts) – 2 or 3 pole mounts – cabling (we have yet to get an answer on the feasibility of making the inter-panel and inter-array wiring or wether its just cheaper to buy them) – C-60 or two C-35 charge controller (the 12 – 105’s is 52.5 amps and the 100’s would be 50 I am not sure if we would have to go to two controllers?) – Power panel kit (outback or backwoods solar) – SW4024 – more cabling – 12 L16-HC – more cabling – trimetric meter’s (one for house and one for garage) – 6KW diesel generator As in the details, I am unsure how practical it is to make your own cabling (having to buy all the wire/connectors) as opposed to just purchasing them premade. I have made cables much like the ones outlined in this months Homepower Magazine many times. I realize the support / design issues that come along with using one supplier but it seems like coordinating all the components, and mainly price (hate to say it), into one supplier is proving difficult. If anyone has any suggestion for suppliers that could "fill the whole bill" that are reasonable in price (this system seems to be coming in around 12-13K without the generator and shipping. Slightly less with the Photowatt panels). Additionally I havent heard/read anything drastic with regards to negative feedback on the photowatt panels but still looking. My calculations for the system were as follows: 1185ah battery bank giving 28.4 kwh total, with 14kwh at 50%DOD at 3-4kwh/day (load while working) that would allow approx 3-4 days. I am thinking we would be able to stretch that for substantially longer in bad weather/winter by only running the house and very few shop loads. The low point of the system seems to be the winter where in we may only be getting little less than 200ah a day out of the panels for charging (based on 3.5hrs a day) which would have to be made up by the generator. Sorry for another long one,… Mark
Response:
Mark, Yikes. On a much smaller scale, I had a similar runaround from a local supplier when I first took over this place and needed, pronto, to do some safety upgrades. They publish a catalogue with no prices, so if you want a freaking bulb socket you have to ask for a quote. And then wait. And wait. Longer if you’re foolish enough to use email instead of forcing their direct attention with a phone call. Although I’m in Canada, and was doing my best to support local business, I ended up making my first purchases from Backwoods Solar in Indiana. I ran across them on the net doing a search for a specific part, asked a few simple questions, and the next thing I knew there was a hard-copy catalogue in my mailbox, while I was *still* waiting for a quote from the local supplier. On top of that, Backwoods answered several increasingly detailed questions, and even emailed me a document they had written for the convenience of their own customers, despite being warned up front that I was trying to spend my money at home. It was obvious who deserved the business, and I gave it to them. I only wish I had been buying more. It’s one thing when you know exactly what you want and you can shop on price. When you need an experienced dealer and some good advice, it’s well worth paying a bit extra IMHO — yet Backwoods’ prices were very competitive. Dunno quite what your next step is, but if you’re still shopping for a competent supplier, give them a try. (They can have the L-16’s drop-shipped from the closest distribution point, too. Saves on postage. <g) www.backwoodssolar.com -=s
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of this may be redundant for those of you who have been helping us out/following our progress,…. but its a sort of status report with more questions…
Response:
While I’m certainly no expert on these things I think I can point out some obvious issues. The first being that dealers that sell a packaged system have to make their money somewhere. This is why you see all the variation and weirdness with prices. If you are really trying to shave pennies from the design you will probably wind up dealing with the lesser quality firms. If you feel you can do as good a job as these firms then you may truly be better off just parting it out and doing the work yourself. Here is the main components of the system we have laid out currently: -12 – Photowatt 105 panels (1260watts)
Actually, I’m told that, due to temperature, it’s a good idea to derate panels by about 20% from their STC ratings. This would make your 105 panels 84 watt panels. 12 of these would be 1008 watts in the real world. If you really need 1260 watts you may want to buy 14 (1176W) or 16 (1344W). – 12 L16-HC
L16H’s seem to be 6V 395Ah batteries storing some 2.3kWh each. This would mean that you would need three strings of 4 batteries each and your total drop dead battery pack storage would be some 28.4 kWh. I’ve been told that it’s better (when possible) to use a single string of batteries instead of parallel strings. I know price is the main driving point here but have you considered another style of battery and/or using 48 volts instead of 24? For instance, the Surrette 4KS-21P is a 4 volt 1100 Ah battery storing some 4.4 kWh each. 6 (six) of these in a single string would give you a 24 volt pack at 1100 Ah or 26.4 kWh and they might last a couple years longer than L16’s due to their design. If you went with 48 volts a Surrette 6CS-21PS is 6V 680 Ah and 8 of these would give you a 48 volt pack at 680 Ah storing 32.6 kWh. Even sticking with the L16’s you would be able to get 18.9 kWh in a single string by going with 48 volts. 16 PV panels could be wired as easily into 4 strings of 48V instead of 8 strings of 24V. Anthony
Response:
While I’m certainly no expert on these things I think I can point out some obvious issues. The first being that dealers that sell a packaged system have to make their money somewhere. This is why you see all the variation and weirdness with prices. If you are really trying to shave pennies from the design you will probably wind up dealing with the lesser quality firms. If you feel you can do as good a job as these firms then you may truly be better off just parting it out and doing the work yourself. Here is the main components of the system we have laid out currently: -12 – Photowatt 105 panels (1260watts)
Actually, I’m told that, due to temperature, it’s a good idea to derate panels by about 20% from their STC ratings. This would This is a big problem with most gas boilers they electric, so when the power goes off so does the boiler, a cut in system so that the heat continues would be a great asset on these boilers.
Response:
A lot of this may be redundant for those of you who have been helping us out/following our progress,…. but its a sort of status report with more questions… Well,… Our first attempts at using a single supplier for our system is not panning out so well.
I’d skip this supplier unless they come up with a reaaaally good price. If they can’t call you back promptly at this point in the game, they’re likely to be useless if you need any technical or warranty help after the sale. We got the same "we’re busy redesigning your system" stuff from the first supplier we called. Two weeks of waiting for a quote which turned out to be quite different from what we’d requested. Rather than diddle any longer, we gave them the heave-ho and never looked back. The next place I called http://www.sunelco.com/ was friendly, competant, and prompt, which is what you should expect given the amount of cash you’re forking over. We have some of the Photowatt 100 watt modules. Got them here http://www.sunelec.com/Specials_/specials_.html , shipped direct from the factory in NM No complaints. Not sure if the newest ones are the same, but ours have a 1" frame. Kinda’ tight for installing the mounting bolts, but the 2" frames on our Solarex are only slightly better. Wattsun has tracking mounts that could hold your entire array http://www.wattsun.com/products/wattsun_trackers/AZ300.html Worth comparing the simpler installation, increased output, and less wear and tear on the batteries against smaller mounts and two additional modules IMO. One thing I appreciate about the place we purchased the bulk of our system – when I inquired about wire and cabling, they just said flat out that if I was interested in saving money, I could get all of that cheaper from local suppliers. YMMV. Wayne
Response:
Scott and Anthony, Thanks for your input,.. Backwoods was one of our comparison systems that we looked at and we have spoken with them. The hard part is as Anthony said, that dealers have to make their money somewhere and its no surprise to me that the places offering the lowest prices arent going to do much work for you. While the company in question did have very competetive pricing (substantially lower than backwoods but not as low as some of the others we had seen) the total system we outlined would be about $2K more through backwoods. One thing we have learned from being in the construction business for so long is that that lowest bid is usually something to really be cautious of. We are getting some material from Backwoods regardless (their power panel kit, etc) as in the two times we have spoken with them they have been nice and helpful over the phone which makes us want to give them some of our business. As for the de-rating of the panels, I have heard this as well and even with the derated value I am not concerned in the summer as I think we will have ample power. In the winter the heat issue may not be so bad and we will be conserving so we will have to see. We simply cant budget much more for panels at this point as by adding panels we will also have to add mounts/controllers/etc. If the system doesnt meet our needs (which I think it is going to exceed) we will adjust. The 48V issue is one we looked at breifly but not one we really considered. We pretty quickly jumped from 12v to 24v with some input from people in this group (thanks Bug) and are happy we did it. I think we will stick with the 24v but thanks for the input. We have looked at the Rolls line many times while researching batteries and they are a bit out of our price rance. We made the jump to the L16-HCs specifically for their projected life span. The extra 4 years (15 year life) for the rolls that we have read about was not enough for us to jump up on price. One thing I have learned through all this is that this endeavor is much like my astronomy hobby. You look at say an 8" telescope and you say, well the 10" is only 400.00 more, so you get it, but then you have to upgrade the mount, there is another 1000.00, then you want bigger better cameras, accessories, and they are all conveniently priced a bit higher than the other. Before you realize it the 400.00 extra for the telescope became 5000.00 worth of adders. Hahah. I guess everything is that way we just have to know when to stop. Mark
Response:
I’d skip this supplier unless they come up with a reaaaally good price. If they can’t call you back promptly at this point in the game, they’re likely to be useless if you need any technical or warranty help after the sale. We got the same "we’re busy redesigning your system" stuff from the first supplier we called. Two weeks of waiting for a quote which turned out to be quite different from what we’d requested. Rather than diddle any longer, we gave them the heave-ho and never looked back. The next place I called http://www.sunelco.com/ was friendly, competant, and prompt, which is what you should expect given the amount of cash you’re forking over.
Wayne,.. They were the next on our list. I have spoken with Rosa there about a GL6500 Kubota generator that we are ordering from them. They have a very good price on that unit. Right after my wife and I read your post this am we reconfigured the array for the use of their Photowatt 95 panels that they have on their specials page for 3.70 a watt!!! We called Rosa and talked a bit with her about our situation and have faxed down the complete list and she is going to get us a 30 day quote on everything and said that picking and choosing from the quote was not a problem they were happy sell us what we wanted off the list. One bonus is that we up’d the array to 14 photowatt 95’s (can add the other two if needed) which will give us an 8 panel array and a 6 panel array producing 1330 watts. We are thinking of making our own mounts as we have the metal shop so that shouldnt be a problem. We also went with two charge controllers (two C40DD’s) to accomodate the two additional panels if we need to add them. We are going to make our own wires as you said, I had thought that would be the way and your post sealed the deal. We will let you all know how it pans out…. You have been a great help with the information you have provided,.. Thanks again… Mark & Shauna
Response:
Mark, You said: We have looked at the Rolls line many times while researching batteries and they are a bit out of our price rance. We made the jump to the L16-HCs specifically for their projected life span. The extra 4 years (15 year life) for the rolls that we have read about was not enough for us to jump up on price.
I looked at the Rolls too. Aside from the price, there’s the issue of weight. They are typically shipped dry, then you get to fill them with acid. Yoiks. Dry or not, they are HEAVY. I learned, when moving the old surplus stationary batts out of here — for which I had to build a winch/dolly gizmo — that there’s something to be said for a battery that can be lifted by a human being. 
Of course you hope never to have to move them until you replace them, but sh*t happens. -=s
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott and Anthony, Thanks for your input,.. Backwoods was one of our comparison systems that we looked at and we have spoken with them. The hard part is as Anthony said, that dealers have to make their money somewhere and its no surprise to me that the places offering the lowest prices arent going to do much work for you. While the company in question did have very competetive pricing (substantially lower than backwoods but not as low as some of the others we had seen) the total system we outlined would be about $2K more through backwoods. One thing we have learned from being in the construction business for so long is that that lowest bid is usually something to really be cautious of. We are getting some material from Backwoods regardless (their power panel kit, etc) as in the two times we have spoken with them they have been nice and helpful over the phone which makes us want to give them some of our business. As for the de-rating of the panels, I have heard this as well and even with the derated value I am not concerned in the summer as I think we will have ample power. In the winter the heat issue may not be so bad and we will be conserving so we will have to see. We simply cant budget much more for panels at this point as by adding panels we will also have to add mounts/controllers/etc. If the system doesnt meet our needs (which I think it is going to exceed) we will adjust. The 48V issue is one we looked at breifly but not one we really considered. We pretty quickly jumped from 12v to 24v with some input from people in this group (thanks Bug) and are happy we did it. I think we will stick with the 24v but thanks for the input. We have looked at the Rolls line many times while researching batteries and they are a bit out of our price rance. We made the jump to the L16-HCs specifically for their projected life span. The extra 4 years (15 year life) for the rolls that we have read about was not enough for us to jump up on price. One thing I have learned through all this is that this endeavor is much like my astronomy hobby. You look at say an 8" telescope and you say, well the 10" is only 400.00 more, so you get it, but then you have to upgrade the mount, there is another 1000.00, then you want bigger better cameras, accessories, and they are all conveniently priced a bit higher than the other. Before you realize it the 400.00 extra for the telescope became 5000.00 worth of adders. Hahah. I guess everything is that way we just have to know when to stop. Mark
Response:
Agreed, For us we just had to do all the normal weighing of options, battery life vs. capacity vs. cost. We opted for the middle of the road in that we didnt want to go with batteries that were going to get us 5 years (concord) and we couldnt swing the rolls for the extra 5 years over the L16HCs/price ratio. If I were setting up a system where money was less of an issue the rolls or IBE would probably be serious contenders. But on our measily 15K system (if you can call that measily) we had to weigh it out. Filling the batteries is not really a problem for me as I am accustomed to having to fill batteries from motorcycles in a past fling with bikes. I am eager to hear where the nearest pickup point for me is for the L16HC’s in WV to see how far I will have to drive to get them. Do you have a web page? What are the details of your system and where in Canada again? Mark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mark, You said: We have looked at the Rolls line many times while researching batteries and they are a bit out of our price rance. We made the jump to the L16-HCs specifically for their projected life span. The extra 4 years (15 year life) for the rolls that we have read about was not enough for us to jump up on price. I looked at the Rolls too. Aside from the price, there’s the issue of weight. They are typically shipped dry, then you get to fill them with acid. Yoiks. Dry or not, they are HEAVY. I learned, when moving the old surplus
Response:
good price on that unit. Right after my wife and I read your post this am we reconfigured the array for the use of their Photowatt 95 panels that they have on their specials page for 3.70 a watt!!! We called Rosa and talked a
I have 12 of the Photowatt PW-1000-95’s. Had them about a year now. Seem like fine panels for the $. I have room for about 8 more. But I either need to win the lottery or the prices need to come down a bit more first. :( A hint on the batteries… Look in the local yellow pages, or the yellow pages for the furthest city to which you are willing to drive. Most cities over 100,000 or so have at least one battery wholesaler. You can usually get the batts for a lot less, and save a bundle on shipping, if you can pick them up locally and haul them yourself. Sometimes the local dealer will even deliver for less than $shipping. One other (semi-sad) note. A local outfit recently sold a bunch of the L16 (not sure if they were the HC) which had "only been driven to church on sunday", err rather, "been kept fully charged on float since late 1999." He offered the last 40 to me at $100/each, but I couldn’t afford the money nor the space. But ohh, it was tempting!!! sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime: ISBN:0-226-49363-6 *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be sdbUse1 and host is at bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!
Response:
Although I’m in Canada, and was doing my best to support local business, I ended up making my first purchases from Backwoods Solar in Indiana. I ran
Hey, credit where credit is due! www.backwoodssolar.com
Those good folks are in my state, Idaho (ID) not Indiana (IN)! :) (Folks are always confusing Idaho with Indiana or Iowa or … Well Idaho is in the Pacific Northwest US, and the northern tip of Idaho touches Canada.) sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime: ISBN:0-226-49363-6 *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be sdbUse1 and host is at bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!
Response:
Although I’m in Canada, and was doing my best to support local business, I ended up making my first purchases from Backwoods Solar in Indiana. I ran Hey, credit where credit is due! www.backwoodssolar.com Those good folks are in my state, Idaho (ID) not Indiana (IN)! :)
Sorry, dumb Canuck. I only had the two-letter designation to go by, which I should have simply included rather than making a bad guess. -=s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Folks are always confusing Idaho with Indiana or Iowa or … Well Idaho is in the Pacific Northwest US, and the northern tip of Idaho touches Canada.) sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime: ISBN:0-226-49363-6 *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be sdbUse1 and host is at bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!
Response:
Wayne and all, Progress report… we faxed the list to Sun Electronics, 8 hours later the fax started chunking away and out came the quote with all the details and freight costs. They had a GREAT price on SW4024 and the generator. The panels were slightly more than the 3.70 a watt advertised on their site (3.84). Looks like between then and Backwoods Solar for the power panel, and some other peripherals we are back in business. Thanks for everyones help and input,.. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of this may be redundant for those of you who have been helping us out/following our progress,…. but its a sort of status report with more questions… Well,… Our first attempts at using a single supplier for our system is not panning out so well. I’d skip this supplier unless they come up with a reaaaally good price. If they can’t call you back promptly at this point in the game, they’re likely to be useless if you need any technical or warranty help after the sale. We got the same "we’re busy redesigning your system" stuff from the first supplier we called. Two weeks of waiting for a quote which turned out to be quite different from what we’d requested. Rather than diddle any longer, we gave them the heave-ho and never looked back. The next place I called http://www.sunelco.com/ was friendly, competant, and prompt, which is what you should expect given the amount of cash you’re forking over. We have some of the Photowatt 100 watt modules. Got them here http://www.sunelec.com/Specials_/specials_.html , shipped direct from the factory in NM No complaints. Not sure if the newest ones are the same, but ours have a 1" frame. Kinda’ tight for installing the mounting bolts, but the 2" frames on our Solarex are only slightly better. Wattsun has tracking mounts that could hold your entire array http://www.wattsun.com/products/wattsun_trackers/AZ300.html Worth comparing the simpler installation, increased output, and less wear and tear on the batteries against smaller mounts and two additional modules IMO. One thing I appreciate about the place we purchased the bulk of our system – when I inquired about wire and cabling, they just said flat out that if I was interested in saving money, I could get all of that cheaper from local suppliers. YMMV. Wayne
Response:
A hint on the batteries… Look in the local yellow pages, or the yellow pages for the furthest city to which you are willing to drive. Most cities over 100,000 or so have at least one battery wholesaler. You can usually get the batts for a lot less, and save a bundle on shipping, if you can pick them up locally and haul them yourself. Sometimes the local dealer will even deliver for less than $shipping.
Sylvan, What a great tip. I looked on the US Battery site for a local dealer near our land in WV for the L16-HCs and the nearest was about 4 hour drive. So for the heck of it I looked near here in MA where we are currently. There is a US battery dealer 10 minutes from our house, called them, they stock the L16 but not the HC’s. They called and can get them next week for 154.00!!! That cuts our battery bank down from 2148.00 to 1850.00. We will just pick them up here and take them with us when we move. Lot of weight but the savings as well as not having to drive 4 hours from the land to get them is worth it. Thanks a lot… Mark
Response:
Lead acid batts… week for 154.00!!! That cuts our battery bank down from 2148.00 to 1850.00. We will just pick them up here and take them with us when we move. Lot of weight but the savings as well as not having to drive 4 hours from the land to get them is worth it.
May I throw a very nice spanner in these works? I have made my own lead acid batteries, and its real easy to do. They cost a small fraction of even the cheapest purchase price. And best of all, you can do that trick with the phosphoric acid that greatly increases both capacity and battery life. Now I wouldnt even consider spending that kind of money on batts, I’d make them for about a fifth the cost. The one caveat is youve got to know how to handle sulphuric acid. If you did chemistry A level, no prob. If not, you can just read up on it. The other caveat is working with sulphuric acid _will_ wreck your clothes, so wear old junk. BTW I would suggest making large 2v cells. Its the minimum effort max reliability way. It really is easy to do too. Regards, NT
Response:
NT, I am always game for things such as this. However, planning, and putting together the entire system has been, and is going to be a pretty large task for us given that we will be moving to a piece of property without a single structure on it and living in a camper while we build a home and shop. All tools and equipment will not be easily accessible for the coming months while we get a barn up and we will need power. I think adding in learning and completing the construction of the batteries would be a bit much for us at this point. In a similar note I am really eager to give biodiesel a go but I will be buying #2 fuel oil for the first year til I can get my feet on the ground. While the savings sounds great, its simply a sacrifice we will have to make at this point to get us our first ten years of battery bank. I would be very interested in doing any research or reading you may suggest about making batteries and will surely try it at some point…. Thanks for the input… Mark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lead acid batts… week for 154.00!!! That cuts our battery bank down from 2148.00 to 1850.00. We will just pick them up here and take them with us when we move. Lot of weight but the savings as well as not having to drive 4 hours from the land to get them is worth it. May I throw a very nice spanner in these works? I have made my own lead acid batteries, and its real easy to do. They cost a small fraction of even the cheapest purchase price. And best of all, you can do that trick with the phosphoric acid that greatly increases both capacity and battery life. Now I wouldnt even consider spending that kind of money on batts, I’d make them for about a fifth the cost. The one caveat is youve got to know how to handle sulphuric acid. If you did chemistry A level, no prob. If not, you can just read up on it. The other caveat is working with sulphuric acid _will_ wreck your clothes, so wear old junk. BTW I would suggest making large 2v cells. Its the minimum effort max reliability way. It really is easy to do too. Regards, NT
Response:
Sounds interesting. Any links to plans for DIY lead-acid batteries? — Bert Menkveld
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lead acid batts… week for 154.00!!! That cuts our battery bank down from 2148.00 to 1850.00. We will just pick them up here and take them with us when we move. Lot of weight but the savings as well as not having to drive 4 hours from the land to get them is worth it. May I throw a very nice spanner in these works? I have made my own lead acid batteries, and its real easy to do. They cost a small fraction of even the cheapest purchase price. And best of all, you can do that trick with the phosphoric acid that greatly increases both capacity and battery life. Now I wouldnt even consider spending that kind of money on batts, I’d make them for about a fifth the cost. The one caveat is youve got to know how to handle sulphuric acid. If you did chemistry A level, no prob. If not, you can just read up on it. The other caveat is working with sulphuric acid _will_ wreck your clothes, so wear old junk. BTW I would suggest making large 2v cells. Its the minimum effort max reliability way. It really is easy to do too. Regards, NT
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Sounds interesting. Any links to plans for DIY lead-acid batteries?
No, I made them before the internet showed up. It is remarkably easy though. There are several books around from 100 or so years ago that tell you how to do it. Back then, if you wanted leccy, you made your own genset and batts. You have an acid proof case, and thick lead plates. The books tell you to use lead compounds in the plates, but I never did. Just plain lead. If you use plain lead, you will need to readjust the acid strength after the first charge. If you are short on money you can collect old dead car batteries, melt down the lead, and pour it into moulds onto cleaned sand (for more surface area). And reuse the old batt cases too. I forget the exact acid strength… but its not hard to find. Do check out that thing with phosphoric acid… I forget the pat no, but it does extend battery life. Regards, NT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – May I throw a very nice spanner in these works? I have made my own lead acid batteries, and its real easy to do. They cost a small fraction of even the cheapest purchase price. And best of all, you can do that trick with the phosphoric acid that greatly increases both capacity and battery life.
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And all this would be a fine way to get your back yard declared a Superfund site. 
Seriously, messing around with old batteries could really be dangerous. You could get acute lead poisoning from inhalation of the fumes when you are melting the lead. Also, the sludge found in the bottom of the old batteries is full of lead salts and oxides, and presents a nasty disposal problem. I’m all for do-it-yourself stuff, but some things are best left to the pros. Gordon Richmond
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I would like to second Gordon’s caution. It would be unwise to save a few bucks by ruining your long term health, and perhaps that of the neighborhood kids as well. While you can undoubtedly build a battery, you will find your home built performs poorly compared to the purchased items. You will use considerably more lead per amp hour, and you will have to take a lot of careful steps to make sure that the battery life is years rather than months. You may want to consider other battery types. The old Edison cell, Iron and nickel in potassium hydroxide, may be less polluting. Relatively low energy density, and I may have heard that they have a pretty high self discharge, but they wear like iron, so to speak. Good for a stationary few days storage.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And all this would be a fine way to get your back yard declared a Superfund site. Seriously, messing around with old batteries could really be dangerous. You could get acute lead poisoning from inhalation of the fumes when you are melting the lead. Also, the sludge found in the bottom of the old batteries is full of lead salts and oxides, and presents a nasty disposal problem. I’m all for do-it-yourself stuff, but some things are best left to the pros. Gordon Richmond
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Well,… Our first attempts at using a single supplier for our system is not panning out so well.
Hi Mark, Here is what I did for my roof mounted grid tied panels. I bought the parts wherever they were cheapest. I contacted a local solar installer, told him exactly what I had, and asked for an instalation price. I wanted to use a guy who was 1) known to the local electric company, 2) a registered elcetrician, 3)knew the permit process He then installed to code, providing wire, conduit, and othe small electric parts. I found on a 600 watt system, I could save ~$1200 on the panel and the GC1000. It’s not too hard to do. It is just as much a headache for a small installer to order and collect parts as it is for anyone else. Do that part of the job for them, and they can better estimate their own costs, and avoid empty promises as to install date we are all at the whim of our supliers) –georges
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I would like to second Gordon’s caution.
Throwing caution to the wind, Mark’s Handbook for electrical engineers has a design for DIY lead acid batteries. One of the virtues of DIY is you can disasmble the battery and inspect the plates. Also, should freezing occur, you can salvage what you need. I’ve not done it yet, but it is on the list –georges
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I missed the post. How did you make your own batteries? Thanks sandfella1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lead acid batts… week for 154.00!!! That cuts our battery bank down from 2148.00 to 1850.00. We will just pick them up here and take them with us when we move. Lot of weight but the savings as well as not having to drive 4 hours from the land to get them is worth it. May I throw a very nice spanner in these works? I have made my own lead acid batteries, and its real easy to do. They cost a small fraction of even the cheapest purchase price. And best of all, you can do that trick with the phosphoric acid that greatly increases both capacity and battery life. Now I wouldnt even consider spending that kind of money on batts, I’d make them for about a fifth the cost. The one caveat is youve got to know how to handle sulphuric acid. If you did chemistry A level, no prob. If not, you can just read up on it. The other caveat is working with sulphuric acid _will_ wreck your clothes, so wear old junk. BTW I would suggest making large 2v cells. Its the minimum effort max reliability way. It really is easy to do too. Regards, NT
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I missed the post. How did you make your own batteries?
OK I’ll go over it… The basic esentials for each cell are a totally clean acid proof case, lead, sulphuric acid and distilled or deionised water. The ones I made were thin plate cells, so I simply used lead sheet, washing it and rinsing off with distilled water. I fitted the lead sheet in the case with a gap bwtween the sheets, secured them (you cant use anything metal other than lead). Now the case is filled with sulphuric acid of the correct specific gravity. I cant remeber the figure offhand, but its easy to find. Now the cell is charged. The first charge will form the lead compounds on the plates, so dont expect it to function propely till the 2nd charge. After the 2st charge you may nede to adjust the acid strength. Now you hvae one basic battery cell. Talk about simple! Some complications: Homepower systems should always use thick plate cells, not thin. ie thick solid lumps of lead, not sheet lead. Thin plate cells dont survive deep cycling. Learn to handle acid first!! and be _careful_. Have water and bicarbonate on hand in case you get it on you hands, in your eyes etc. Wear safety goggles and rag clothes. Any contact with acid, wash freely immediately. Allow a space between bottom of plates and bottom of case. Lead sludge collects down there and would short the battery out otherwise. Fit a top to the case: if much slowly drops into it it will soon die. The top must have a vent. Wash everything with deionised water before assmebling the cell. Fix the plates securely somehow – thats for you to figure out. Only acid proof things can be used. No metal at all. Use a strong case too. Battery lead sludge is poison. Do not dispose of it thoughtlessly. Finally, theres a neat trick from an old patent. Adding a very low concentration of phosphoric acid greatly icreases the capacity and life of the cells. The concentration is fairly critical, you have to get it just right for it to work. Suggested sources: battery cases: old car batt cases. Lead: from car batts, lead sheet, old lead window weights, melted down and poured into a mould. Acid: A battery manufacturer, maybe a chemist, or from old car batts if youre prepared to test it first with a little tiny test cell. Deionised water: buy from pharmacy or garage or make your own. Phosphoric acid: that will not be so easy to get. Now I might have left something out, or made a mistake… if you work with acid and toxic lead compounds, and get injured, you should have taken proper f2f instruction first. Regards, NT
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