Question:

I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model. Would anyone be able to give me their opinion or some advice on the following options. I live in an old (approx 100ys) house in Ottawa, Canada (all prices in CDN$) and currently have a 25 yr old furnace and 10-15 yr old a/c unit. 1. Goodman High Eff Furnace Goodman 12 SEER 1.5 ton A/c Price: $4600 2. Kenwood mid eff (80%) furnace with DC motor – Dual stage, 52,000 and 75,000 BTU he said this would use less energy (hydro + gas) than a high eff with a standard motor. Kenwood 10 SEER 2 ton a/c – delta between 10 and 12 SEER is supposedly only $50 hydro per year. Price: $5300 3. Bryant Hi Eff furnace 80,000 BTU Bryant 2 ton 10 SEER a/c Price: $5000 My main Q is whether the mid eff furnace with DC motor is a better buy than the hi eff model with standard motor. It seems I would only save an extra few % on heating costs with a hi eff, but would maybe save more hydro with the DC motor. Plus I’ve heard maintainance of hi eff models is more complex and expensive. Any comments / advice? Thanks in advance, Paul

Response:

If you have Trane or American Standard available in Canada, I would check them out. (Same company) This time of year, or in a month, they have promotions in the US with lower price plus 10 – 15 years parts and LABOR warrantee. We have a Trane Hi Eff. (90 plus furnace, only 12 SEER air was available but they now have 14) Got a better price than lower eff. Bryant, Sears, another I can not recall. This is the 4th year and very please with it so far, especially operating bills. I think all new furnaces are going to have more service problems than old ones because of positive draft fans, electronic igniters and circuit boards checking sensors rather than natural draft and pilot light. Walt Conner USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model. Would anyone be able to give me their opinion or some advice on the following options. I live in an old (approx 100ys) house in Ottawa, Canada (all prices in CDN$) and currently have a 25 yr old furnace and 10-15 yr old a/c unit. 1. Goodman High Eff Furnace Goodman 12 SEER 1.5 ton A/c Price: $4600 2. Kenwood mid eff (80%) furnace with DC motor – Dual stage, 52,000 and 75,000 BTU he said this would use less energy (hydro + gas) than a high eff with a standard motor. Kenwood 10 SEER 2 ton a/c – delta between 10 and 12 SEER is supposedly only $50 hydro per year. Price: $5300 3. Bryant Hi Eff furnace 80,000 BTU Bryant 2 ton 10 SEER a/c Price: $5000 My main Q is whether the mid eff furnace with DC motor is a better buy than the hi eff model with standard motor. It seems I would only save an extra few % on heating costs with a hi eff, but would maybe save more hydro with the DC motor. Plus I’ve heard maintainance of hi eff models is more complex and expensive. Any comments / advice? Thanks in advance, Paul

This is Turtle. If you live in canada , the high eff. model is what you should be looking at. the standard Eff. models have a 80% afue and high eff. models run near 90%afue to 94%afue. If you run your furnace 6 months out of the year. You save 10% to 14% on the fuel consumed. Take 10% to 14% off your fuel bill for the next 20 years and you might be surprised at what it will be. Now if you live in Louisiana down South here in the U.S. . The standard is all you need. We don’t use heat very much at all. I’m running my cooling system right now for it is hot here. Now parts costing more than standard furnaces. I install them and i don’t see this to be very much of a big deal at all. Now to the DC motor being a better buy to maybe save some money of some kind. Leave the DC motor alone. They will cost you down the road big time. Price a DC motor and you will not ask anything else. You will for sure change the DC motor out in the next 10 years. Now the high Eff. models being more complex than standard to work on. To the yardBoy maybe but not to a good train Tech. I personally think they are about the same but just a few more things to look at. TURTLE

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model. Would anyone be able to give me their opinion or some advice on the following options. I live in an old (approx 100ys) house in Ottawa, Canada (all prices in CDN$) and currently have a 25 yr old furnace and 10-15 yr old a/c unit. 1. Goodman High Eff Furnace Goodman 12 SEER 1.5 ton A/c Price: $4600 2. Kenwood mid eff (80%) furnace with DC motor – Dual stage, 52,000 and 75,000 BTU he said this would use less energy (hydro + gas) than a high eff with a standard motor. Kenwood 10 SEER 2 ton a/c – delta between 10 and 12 SEER is supposedly only $50 hydro per year. Price: $5300 3. Bryant Hi Eff furnace 80,000 BTU Bryant 2 ton 10 SEER a/c Price: $5000 My main Q is whether the mid eff furnace with DC motor is a better buy than the hi eff model with standard motor. It seems I would only save an extra few % on heating costs with a hi eff, but would maybe save more hydro with the DC motor. Plus I’ve heard maintainance of hi eff models is more complex and expensive. Any comments / advice? Thanks in advance, Paul

In Canada, well a high eff. furnace is the way to go. Saving anywhere between 10-14 % of the bill. i.e. spent $1000.00 in heat, 80% = $200.00 out the flu. Now then if you had a 92% spending $1000.00, $80.00 out the flu soooooooo, you would save $120.00 a year times 10 yrs = $1200.00 Wow that’s real money That’s half of the system cost. That you just saved. For the most part a high eff. furnace has a secondary heat exchanger and a couple other parts. No biggie. Sooner or later you will have problems with either one. As Turtle has said, price the DC motor. One of these could offset your saving a whole bunch if you had to replace. Just sit down before they tell you the price. kjpro

Response:

I researched furnaces for my home about a year ago. It really depends on how much energy you use, but I had a hard time cost-justifying a high efficiency furnace. Based on my energy usage, the payback period would have been 7-10 years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model. Would anyone be able to give me their opinion or some advice on the following options. I live in an old (approx 100ys) house in Ottawa, Canada (all prices in CDN$) and currently have a 25 yr old furnace and 10-15 yr old a/c unit. 1. Goodman High Eff Furnace Goodman 12 SEER 1.5 ton A/c Price: $4600 2. Kenwood mid eff (80%) furnace with DC motor – Dual stage, 52,000 and 75,000 BTU he said this would use less energy (hydro + gas) than a high eff with a standard motor. Kenwood 10 SEER 2 ton a/c – delta between 10 and 12 SEER is supposedly only $50 hydro per year. Price: $5300 3. Bryant Hi Eff furnace 80,000 BTU Bryant 2 ton 10 SEER a/c Price: $5000 My main Q is whether the mid eff furnace with DC motor is a better buy than the hi eff model with standard motor. It seems I would only save an extra few % on heating costs with a hi eff, but would maybe save more hydro with the DC motor. Plus I’ve heard maintainance of hi eff models is more complex and expensive. Any comments / advice? Thanks in advance, Paul

Response:

Now to the DC motor being a better buy to maybe save some money of some kind. Leave the DC motor alone. They will cost you down the road big time. Price a DC motor and you will not ask anything else. You will for sure change the DC motor out in the next 10 years.

        And when you do, you won’t be able to ‘just run out and get one’, and the service guy won’t ‘just happen to have one on his truck’.  They are all very custom, and *IF* you can order it / get it ordered ( IE, not discontinued ), you’re gonna wait for it, as well as pay for it.

Coming soon – PMTherm version 2.0  !!  http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm Free superheat charts for 38 Ref’s online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ My personal site is at  http://www.pmilligan.net , featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters

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This guy lives in Canada. Your system should last 18-22 yrs. So you are saving money after 7-10 yrs. Which is anywhere between 8-15 yrs. Even at $50.00 yr. at ten yrs. is $500.00. If you don’t want that send it to me. kjpro

I researched furnaces for my home about a year ago. It really depends on how much energy you use, but I had a hard time cost-justifying a high efficiency furnace. Based on my energy usage, the payback period would have been 7-10 years.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model. Would anyone be able to give me their opinion or some advice on the following options. I live in an old (approx 100ys) house in Ottawa, Canada (all prices in CDN$) and currently have a 25 yr old furnace and 10-15 yr old a/c unit. 1. Goodman High Eff Furnace Goodman 12 SEER 1.5 ton A/c Price: $4600 2. Kenwood mid eff (80%) furnace with DC motor – Dual stage, 52,000 and 75,000 BTU he said this would use less energy (hydro + gas) than a high eff with a standard motor. Kenwood 10 SEER 2 ton a/c – delta between 10 and 12 SEER is supposedly only $50 hydro per year. Price: $5300 3. Bryant Hi Eff furnace 80,000 BTU Bryant 2 ton 10 SEER a/c Price: $5000 My main Q is whether the mid eff furnace with DC motor is a better buy than the hi eff model with standard motor. It seems I would only save an extra few % on heating costs with a hi eff, but would maybe save more hydro with the DC motor. Plus I’ve heard maintainance of hi eff models is more complex and expensive. Any comments / advice? Thanks in advance, Paul

Response:

I researched furnaces for my home about a year ago. It really depends on how much energy you use, but I had a hard time cost-justifying a high efficiency furnace. Based on my energy usage, the payback period would have been 7-10 years.

and after that it is paying you.  As long as it will pay for the extra cost, why not consider it?

Response:

I researched furnaces for my home about a year ago. It really depends on how much energy you use, but I had a hard time cost-justifying a high efficiency furnace. Based on my energy usage, the payback period would have been 7-10 years. and after that it is paying you.  As long as it will pay for the extra cost, why not consider it?

So what are you investing in that is paying 10-14%?  I may want to buy some of that.

Response:

I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice. 2 people have recommended high efficiency models, while the 3rd has said I should definitely have a mid efficiency model.

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate it. You have confirmed in my mind that High Eff furnace is the way to go. The fact that the 2nd insaller (Sears) was so against one confused me a bit, but I think it makes sense as it’s currently -15C in mid March here in Ottawa. Think I’ll go with option 3 and pay a few hundred more dollars for Bryant over Goodman equipment. Thanks again, Paul

Response:

Hell they have 19SEER now and in 22

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you have Trane or American Standard available in Canada, I would check them out. (Same company) This time of year, or in a month, they have promotions in the US with lower price plus 10 – 15 years parts and LABOR warrantee. We have a Trane Hi Eff. (90 plus furnace, only 12 SEER air was available but they now have 14) Got a better price than lower eff. Bryant, Sears, another I can not recall. This is the 4th year and very please with it so far, especially operating bills. I think all new furnaces are going to have more service problems than old ones because of positive draft fans, electronic igniters and circuit boards checking sensors rather than natural draft and pilot light. Walt Conner USA I’ve had 3 quotes for new furnaces now and have conflicting advice.

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Question:

Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models? You may want to review the information on http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/1007/ before you select a manufacturer.  My 5-year old Carrier furnace has NEVER worked properly and their so-called "customer service" has been apalling.

Ruud makes a fine furnance and not expensive. You also might want to take a look at the GMC "Janitrol" furnance. It has a strong warranty (5 years on all parts and at least 20 years on the exchanger.) Either way both have great after market service and cost (before shipping) is less than $500.00 for the furnance and aprox $175 for the matching 12 SEER cooling coil (I used a 50,000 btuh furnance and 3 ton a/c coil)Thom

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Ruud makes a fine furnance and not expensive. You also might want to take a look at the GMC "Janitrol" furnance. It has a strong warranty (5 years on all parts and at least 20 years on the exchanger.) Either way both have great after market service and cost (before shipping) is less than $500.00 for the furnance and aprox $175 for the matching 12 SEER cooling coil (I used a 50,000 btuh furnance and 3 ton a/c coil)Thom

You want to see POOR customer service, try getting GMC/Janitrol to help.  If you get though in the next quarter, you one of the lucky ones.  I worked for a firm that was a wholesale distributor of this product, and I cna say quite clearly that there is NO customer service at the factory.  There is no engineering support at the factory.  I started to wonder where those things were being made. I have also worked with BDP/Carrier and York, both of which were significantly better than GMC.  I don’t know much about the Ruud/Rheem service, although I’m sure it’s better than GMC. I think your pricing may be a little off, but I’ll let the others here correct that, as I have been away from the residential market for a while and don’t have an accurate sense of where GMC has gone with it. Dan

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Do we really need someone listing prices of equipment on this news group? I think not …  To protest I just won’t sell brands that post online wholesale pricing. Gil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models? You may want to review the information on http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/1007/ before you select a manufacturer.  My 5-year old Carrier furnace has NEVER worked properly and their so-called "customer service" has been apalling. Ruud makes a fine furnance and not expensive. You also might want to take a look at the GMC "Janitrol" furnance. It has a strong warranty (5 years on all parts and at least 20 years on the exchanger.) Either way both have great after market service and cost (before shipping) is less than $500.00 for the furnance and aprox $175 for the matching 12 SEER cooling coil (I used a 50,000 btuh furnance and 3 ton a/c coil)Thom

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Be nice if York would make up their minds WHICH ignitor… Flat or spiral, mount it vertical or horizontal… How about the bogus retrofit kit to move the flame sensor and ignitor into the rollout shield just so you can service em’? (in the Diamond 80, don’t care to deal with the 90… talk about a buried HSI!!!). Gimme ANY Carrier/BDP any day! HVACMAN

Response:

Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models?

You may want to review the information on http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/1007/ before you select a manufacturer.  My 5-year old Carrier furnace has NEVER worked properly and their so-called "customer service" has been apalling.

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 The real bone I need to pick is with the HSI comment, this fce, is the easiest by far on ignitors,

Sorry HVACMAN, but I beg to differ.  The hsi on the plus 90 is an absolute pig to change! I go through many more York, Rheem/Ruud, Arco, and Amana

I’ll gladly change 50 York hsi’s rather than have to change 1 Plus90.                             Respectfully, Bob

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John, That was quite a slam job… The issues you mention affected only the 90+ models through early 95. The condensate backup occured in 100 and 120k input furnaces because the inducer would not drain the increased volume of condensate, a simple channeled discharge stub solved that one… The circut board failures were eliminated by a redesign that was immediately put into production, these boards have never been in question except where installed in a first generation furnace… the only logical step was to relocate them to the blower compartment which is where they are from the factory in newer models (since mid 94). This fix comes in a kit and is prewired, Carrier paid us 1.5 hours at our street rate for 40 min. of work. And the many tubes and hoses you mention really mystify me… 2 for the pressure switch, one from the collector, 2 from the inducer… pretty straightforward. The real bone I need to pick is with the HSI comment, this fce, is the easiest by far on ignitors, I go through many more York, Rheem/Ruud, Arco, and Amana, just don’t break the clip!  HVACMAN

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I have heard good things about the Rheem/Rhuud new systems. A little cheaper than Carrier and Trane but I think a good buy.Definitely better than 90% of the systems on the market. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models? Thanks in advance, Gary.

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Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models?

All good. We’ve sold this since before it was available to the public. My sister has a test model, too small for the house so it gets a workout and it has worked great. They have been reliable, actually one of the few new furnace that came out ready to work, no bugs to fix. Easy to install and service, which is good for us, and very quiet, which is good for you. We also sell Trane and their 90% is good but we prefer the Rheem/Ruud unit. Quieter unit, been fewer problems with the other but Trane’s is a decent unit compared to many on the market. Carrier still is working out the bugs of its newest 90% models. First they had trouble with condensate in the inducer. Next was a control board that had failures. Then the new control board they replaced it with tended to overheat and had to be moved from the burner compartment to blower compartment which meant rewire the whole furnace. The Carrier unit is a multiposition so it is full of tubes and hoses making it very difficult to work on. Even changing the hot surface ignitor, which has to be done every few years, is a pain. Here’s a job we did using the Rheem/Ruud/WeatherKing 90. http://www.geocities.com/~johnmills/install/in90.html — HVAC Advice, Links, Pictures http://www.geocities.com/~johnmills http://www.appelheat.com

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Does anybody have any experience (good/bad) with the above furnace? How does it compare with similar Trane and Carrier models? Thanks in advance, Gary.

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