Question:

I’m not really disagreeing with you, I am merely saying that the costs of operating a "light twin" range widely from plane to plane and also from year to year.  If the "light twin" is a turbocharged, KI airplane with extensive instrumentation it will probably cost at least twice as much to fly as a simple twin. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is going to depend a lot on the individual airplane and what features it has.  On an airplane with boots, the boots ARE eventually going to have to be replaced and the cost is going to be over $15k and they probably won’t last ten years, so boots alone will cost $7.50/hr… Boots are not a high priority on the Gulf coast (where I do most of my flying and all of my business flying) because IMC combined with freezing levels down to the MEA’s happens once every couple of years. The bottom line is that it is not realistic to extrapolate two or three years of experience, you need to either use at least a thousand hours of experience or estimate the life time of every part. For me, three years of experience is over 600 hours.  Note that I gave the maintenance breakdown for a reason – did you note the $4200 for gear AD and associated maintenance?  That’s a 1000 hour AD, and many of the parts replaced were original – meaning they lasted 6000+ hours.  It is unlikely that they will be replaced again in the lifetime of the airplane.  The same is true of the gear trunion, exhaust stack, and cylinders.  None of those expenses are likely to recur in the next couple of years, but other expenses will.  It all averages out. With regard to vacuum pumps – yes, I certainly do wait for them to fail, and one already has.  The repair cost is part of the breakdown I gave.  Given that I only need one pump to run my gyros, and given that I have an indicator that immediately tells me when one fails, I think this makes sense. Michael

Response:

I’m not really disagreeing with you, I am merely saying that the costs of operating a "light twin" range widely from plane to plane and also from year to year.  If the "light twin" is a turbocharged, KI airplane with extensive instrumentation it will probably cost at least twice as much to fly as a simple twin.

Certainly one can’t argue that point.  However, the same is true of a single.  If you’re going to consider a light twin that is a turbocharged, KI airplane with extensive instrumentation, you need to compare it to a similarly equipped single.  They do exist – lately I’ve seen a Bonanza with a RADAR pod, 300+ hp turbocharged engine, TKS known ice, and a panel that makes one drool.  How much do you want to bet his operating costs are nearly double what mine are? Michael

Response:

I have owned a Cessna 320 and 414.  Previously I owned 2 Mooneys.  I am sure there are less expensive twins than the Cessnas but they seriously lack performance.  Now to the cost.  Whatever the cost of your single engine was, quadruple it.  In fact your first year may truly be higher. (I dont care how great a prebuy you have)  Please note that I am a perfectionist when it comes to a zero squak plane.  My insurance only ran $5500 per year.  Engines are not drasticly different between all planes.  The major difference is the systems.  Small switches run a $1000.00.  You must understand a good twin if new today would cost between 600k-1m, so its parts are expensive.  Also, there are many more single engine planes flying, so secondary suppliers are more abundant. One last thing, if you are buying on a very tight budget that cant handle $1,000.00 hits, either rent or stay with a single. Good luck. *** Sent via http://www.automationtools.com *** Add a newsgroup interface to your website today.

Response:

The guy neglected annual and hangar/tiedown.

no, the annual was included in the maintenance cost.  and my tiedown is currently $0/month.  (the fbo figures they’ll make more on fuel sales if they allow free tiedown, although they do reserve the right to start collecting any month they choose.) you guys can debate philosophies of costs at length (and it’s an interesting debate, i agree.)  the o.p. asked for "actual numbers", and so far, i don’t see any other posts with actual numbers, only why my numbers are wrong.  so, how ’bout showing some number of your own?  or is it one of those "i really don’t want to know" cases? g_a

Response:

Same here.  Planes with near new engines (cost of overhaul still fresh in the owner’s mind) were marked UP correctly, but planes near TBO were not marked down enough.  In many cases I could only guess that the prices were not set with engine hours as a consideration.

From a bargaining standpoint, it sounds like a good place to start the pricing. If they priced it "correctly" then any bargaining will go against them. Marco  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

Response:

It is going to depend a lot on the individual airplane and what features it has.  On an airplane with boots, the boots ARE eventually going to have to be replaced and the cost is going to be over $15k and they probably won’t last ten years, so boots alone will cost $7.50/hr…

Boots are not a high priority on the Gulf coast (where I do most of my flying and all of my business flying) because IMC combined with freezing levels down to the MEA’s happens once every couple of years. The bottom line is that it is not realistic to extrapolate two or three years of experience, you need to either use at least a thousand hours of experience or estimate the life time of every part.

For me, three years of experience is over 600 hours.  Note that I gave the maintenance breakdown for a reason – did you note the $4200 for gear AD and associated maintenance?  That’s a 1000 hour AD, and many of the parts replaced were original – meaning they lasted 6000+ hours.  It is unlikely that they will be replaced again in the lifetime of the airplane.  The same is true of the gear trunion, exhaust stack, and cylinders.  None of those expenses are likely to recur in the next couple of years, but other expenses will.  It all averages out. With regard to vacuum pumps – yes, I certainly do wait for them to fail, and one already has.  The repair cost is part of the breakdown I gave.  Given that I only need one pump to run my gyros, and given that I have an indicator that immediately tells me when one fails, I think this makes sense. Michael

Response:

It is going to depend a lot on the individual airplane and what features it has.  On an airplane with boots, the boots ARE eventually going to have to be replaced and the cost is going to be over $15k and they probably won’t last ten years, so boots alone will cost $7.50/hr.  A KI airplane will also have at least a hot plate on the windshield which costs a lot and doesn’t last forever either.  Vacuum gyros last about 1000hrs and if you have dual instrumentation then you have four at about $500 each (or a lot more for HSIs with intregal gyro).  So gyros alone will be from $1/hr with two simple ones to $4.50/hr for dual instruments with dual HSIs.  If you don’t hanger then you can figure on paint and maybe interior about every 5-10yrs.  Figure $12,000 or $6/hr.  If you have an IFR GPS then $350/yr for the database, thats $1.75/hr.. In the five years I have owned an MU-2, I have spent as little as $30k and as much as $110k on maitenance per year.  I fly 150-250 hrs/year. Everything has a finite lifespan and eventually has to be replaced. Windshields lasted about 4,000 hrs but cost $50k to replace.  Most pilots wouldn’t consider the cost of windshields but they don’t last forever so they are a consumable.  An ACM lasts about 4000hrs but costs  up to $35,000 to overhaul, so 8.75/hr.  I know piston airplanes don’t have ACMs and heated windshields but they have plenty of stuff that wears out, vacuum pumps come to mind.  Figure a dollar or two per hour for those on a twin. The bottom line is that it is not realistic to extrapolate two or three years of experience, you need to either use at least a thousand hours of experience or estimate the life time of every part.  You may go several years spending $40hr on maitenance then spend $12k on the next hour.  In you example you cite 600hrs but do not mention vacuum pumps.  Are you going to wait for them to fail? Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. I’m squarely in the ‘not much more than comparable singles’ camp – but realize that comparable singles (and I mean comparable in all ways – speed, load, cabin room, handling) are few and far between.  Something like an Arrow isn’t comparable to any twin that anyone other than a flight school would ever own.  When getting into comparable singles, think Bonanza, Comanche, or Viking. Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. First off, the Aztec doesn’t belong in that group.  It’s a big twin with big engines (470+ total hp) and thus costs a lot more to operate than your other choices.  Operating costs will be comparable to a Baron or C-310. I own a Twin Comanche and fly it about 200 hrs/year.  Until just now, I have not been hangaring it (but I have been paying $50/month for tiedown) and my operating costs are about $100/hr, or about $20,000 a year.  They do not include a lot of my own time spent on maintenance, but then again I have some very high standards for maintenance and probably do a lot more than necessary.  Here’s the breakdown: Tiedown – $600/yr Insurance – $2500/yr Fuel & oil – $7500/yr Maintenance (incl annual) – $5000/yr Engine/prop reserve – $4000/yr My maintenance costs break down as follows:  Over the course of 3 years (600+ hours) I’ve had the following major expenses: Gear AD, push tubes & associated maintenance – $4200 Spare generator, voltage regulator, overhauls of same – $1000 Cylinders – $1700 Tires, batteries, brakes – $1000 Engine mount, Lycoming gear AD – $1500 Cracked gear trunion (parts and labor) – $1500 Exhaust stack – $600 Radio replacement – $500 Misc parts – $1500 Misc labor – $1500 I’ve also spent $6000 on upgrades – specifically, an autopilot, Stormscope, AM/FM/CD Player, and interior.  However, I suspect these will increase the selling price (assuming the light twin market recovers) so I’m not quite ready to expense these yet. I’m not including the opportunity cost on the money.  So far, even with the twin market in the crapper, my twin has still done a lot better than anything in my 401K. Now the bad news – I estimate that even excluding the labor that went into the upgrades, I have spent more hours working on the airplane than flying it. Michael

Response:

Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’.

I’m squarely in the ‘not much more than comparable singles’ camp – but realize that comparable singles (and I mean comparable in all ways – speed, load, cabin room, handling) are few and far between.  Something like an Arrow isn’t comparable to any twin that anyone other than a flight school would ever own.  When getting into comparable singles, think Bonanza, Comanche, or Viking. Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run.

First off, the Aztec doesn’t belong in that group.  It’s a big twin with big engines (470+ total hp) and thus costs a lot more to operate than your other choices.  Operating costs will be comparable to a Baron or C-310. I own a Twin Comanche and fly it about 200 hrs/year.  Until just now, I have not been hangaring it (but I have been paying $50/month for tiedown) and my operating costs are about $100/hr, or about $20,000 a year.  They do not include a lot of my own time spent on maintenance, but then again I have some very high standards for maintenance and probably do a lot more than necessary.  Here’s the breakdown: Tiedown – $600/yr Insurance – $2500/yr Fuel & oil – $7500/yr Maintenance (incl annual) – $5000/yr Engine/prop reserve – $4000/yr My maintenance costs break down as follows:  Over the course of 3 years (600+ hours) I’ve had the following major expenses: Gear AD, push tubes & associated maintenance – $4200 Spare generator, voltage regulator, overhauls of same – $1000 Cylinders – $1700 Tires, batteries, brakes – $1000 Engine mount, Lycoming gear AD – $1500 Cracked gear trunion (parts and labor) – $1500 Exhaust stack – $600 Radio replacement – $500 Misc parts – $1500 Misc labor – $1500 I’ve also spent $6000 on upgrades – specifically, an autopilot, Stormscope, AM/FM/CD Player, and interior.  However, I suspect these will increase the selling price (assuming the light twin market recovers) so I’m not quite ready to expense these yet. I’m not including the opportunity cost on the money.  So far, even with the twin market in the crapper, my twin has still done a lot better than anything in my 401K. Now the bad news – I estimate that even excluding the labor that went into the upgrades, I have spent more hours working on the airplane than flying it. Michael

Response:

Thanks. This is exactly what I’m looking for. I’d like to see some ‘real’ examples of ‘real’ numbers. It seems like every time I ask a question like this, I get a bunch of reasons why the costs *should* be this or that. I appraciate that advice, but I’d really like to hear what peoples numbers *are* rather than ’should be’. I head about all the ’should bes’ before I bought my single engine…and my real numebrs were much closer to the numbers that people had, rather than what they ’should be’. Thanks, Cap – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap last year we spent 10,500 on insurance and maintenace on our 310. it flew about 140 hours, making that about 75/hr plus fuel.  we usually cruise at ~55%, which burns 21 gph, so add another 55/hr for fuel.  so that’s about 130/hr.  everybody says that it costs 200/hr to fly a 310, and you can get to that figure if you add in "opportunity costs" and a bunch of extra stuff.  (realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h). now the first year we had it, we flew 1.5 hours, then the right gear collapsed — mechanical problem.  we sort of had it under- insured, elected to fix it anyway, and paid about 15k out of pocket.  however, that did include o/h of the right engine, which was past tbo and we knew we were going to have to do anyway.  but if you divide 15k by 1.5, the first year it costs us ~10k/hr plus fuel  :-) g_a

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap

last year we spent 10,500 on insurance and maintenace on our 310. it flew about 140 hours, making that about 75/hr plus fuel.  we usually cruise at ~55%, which burns 21 gph, so add another 55/hr for fuel.  so that’s about 130/hr.  everybody says that it costs 200/hr to fly a 310, and you can get to that figure if you add in "opportunity costs" and a bunch of extra stuff.  (realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h). now the first year we had it, we flew 1.5 hours, then the right gear collapsed — mechanical problem.  we sort of had it under- insured, elected to fix it anyway, and paid about 15k out of pocket.  however, that did include o/h of the right engine, which was past tbo and we knew we were going to have to do anyway.  but if you divide 15k by 1.5, the first year it costs us ~10k/hr plus fuel  :-) g_a

Response:

(realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h).

Doesn’t matter. That money’s spent anyway because hours on the engines decrease the value of the airplane when you sell. You can’t avoid overhaul costs. — Dan C172RG at BFM

Response:

(realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h). Doesn’t matter. That money’s spent anyway because hours on the engines decrease the value of the airplane when you sell. You can’t avoid overhaul costs.

But you can avoid the short term cash outlay.

Response:

To make a valid comparison, you have to know what your question is. Are you interested in knowing the cost of two engines vs. one?  Then you have to get as close to apples to apples as you can to isolate the effect of having two engines instead of one.  Compare two similar airframes with only the number of engines being different, like an Arrow to a Seminole, or Saratoga to a Seneca.  You will find that the difference is quite obvious, twice as many oil changes, spark plugs, vacuum pumps, etc. will be purchased.  That’s it.  Having two of everything is why you bought that twin, so it is no surprise that the engine maintenance costs are double. Or if you are more interested in just knowing how expensive it is to own a more complex airplane, then compare the cost of any simple plane to a complex plane.  Say an Archer to a Seminole.  The more gadgets you have, the more they break or need adjustment.  That’s where the maintenance costs jump, and in my opinion where the myth that twins are unaccountably more expensive than singles comes from.  They are more expensive, but it is not caused by the extra engine any more than would be expected.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap

Response:

So how much for hanger, how much reserved for P&I, engines props, gyros ect? Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap last year we spent 10,500 on insurance and maintenace on our 310. it flew about 140 hours, making that about 75/hr plus fuel.  we usually cruise at ~55%, which burns 21 gph, so add another 55/hr for fuel.  so that’s about 130/hr.  everybody says that it costs 200/hr to fly a 310, and you can get to that figure if you add in "opportunity costs" and a bunch of extra stuff.  (realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h). now the first year we had it, we flew 1.5 hours, then the right gear collapsed — mechanical problem.  we sort of had it under- insured, elected to fix it anyway, and paid about 15k out of pocket.  however, that did include o/h of the right engine, which was past tbo and we knew we were going to have to do anyway.  but if you divide 15k by 1.5, the first year it costs us ~10k/hr plus fuel  :-) g_a

Response:

When I was researching things preparing to buy my first plane, I spent nearly a year tracking prices in TAP. As nearly as I can tell from that, aircraft prices are discounted only about half of what an "hour bank" should be.

Same here.  Planes with near new engines (cost of overhaul still fresh in the owner’s mind) were marked UP correctly, but planes near TBO were not marked down enough.  In many cases I could only guess that the prices were not set with engine hours as a consideration. — Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/

Response:

Although it’s true that cutting costs can decrease the expenses associated with flying a twin, Aviation Consumer reviewed some of these issues and concluded that one of the most common causes of light twin accidents is inadequate, delayed, or deferred maintenance. Therefore, it might not pay in the long run to skimp on maintenance issues, especially in a light twin. On the other hand, flying across Lake Michigan at night is a lot more comfortable with two engines. Just my brief opinion. JN Baron driver

Response:

Have a look at http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

Response:

If you buy an airplane with an engine at or past TBO, the hours until you have to overhaul it are essentially "free". If it is making good compressions, no oil burn and no metal, making good power, then chances are a past TBO engine will go another 500 hours. The guy neglected annual and hangar/tiedown. Here is a list. FIXED COSTS Hangar or tiedown Annual (just the annual, NOT repairs) Insurance HOURLY COSTS Fuel Oil Maintenance Overhaul Reserves The least expensive twin would probably be a Piper Apache, although a Twin Commanche would not be far behind (and might actually be less). They all seem to have a lot more things on them to go out than a single, not just the extra engine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (realistically, you should add about 20-30/hr for overhaul, but we have really low time engines and figure that we’ll trade up before we get to o/h). Doesn’t matter. That money’s spent anyway because hours on the engines decrease the value of the airplane when you sell. You can’t avoid overhaul costs. But you can avoid the short term cash outlay.

Response:

Doesn’t matter. That money’s spent anyway because hours on the engines decrease the value of the airplane when you sell. You can’t avoid overhaul costs.

When I was researching things preparing to buy my first plane, I spent nearly a year tracking prices in TAP. As nearly as I can tell from that, aircraft prices are discounted only about half of what an "hour bank" should be. One that I remember was a 150 with an engine well over TBO that hadn’t been run in two years. They asked (and got) $4,500 for the plane. An overhaul from a reputable shop like Mattituck at the time ran about $12,000 installed. No way could you have put a fresh engine in it and gotten $16,500 for that plane. George Patterson      If you’re not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging      the problem.

Response:

Unless you own a bunch of aircraft the law of averages doesn’t mean anything. It will cost you a little to a lot more or less than the average to run your particular machine last, this or next year. To keep your hourly cost down, buy what you can afford, fly a lot, put the gear down always, keep it in a hangar, use mogas, take your own cowls off, shop around for parts, fix things right away, pay your mechanic on time, carry liability insurance only, get recurrent training and don’t lend your plane. Anyway, knock on wood, it works for me and my Apache which purrs along a couple hundred hours a year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap

Response:

Hello. I’d like to get a better understanding of the true costs of various light twins from people who have direct experience with them. I’ve seen a bunch of opinions about how expensive twins are on here from many different people ranging from ‘not much more than comparable single’ to ‘more costly that purchasing Western Europe’. Before I bought my single-engine plane (a 1963 Beech Musketeer), I had heard a similar range of numbers for this kind of plane. Several people said since it was so old, it would cost $90 an hour when you factored in maintenence. It didn’t….it ended up costing about $47 per hour over almost 2 years, and that includes replacing a fair number of parts (Carb, mag, brakes, tires, hoses, spinner…). The guy who owns an even older Cessna 170 on the field near my tiedown says the age of his plane has never caused him any problems at all, and it’s been cheaper than the much newer 172 a friend of his has. So I’m not convinced yet about the old saw about older airplanes costing you an arm and a leg in maintenence…it just hasn’t been my experience yet. I have a friend who owns an Apache and flys it about 200 hours a year…he doesn’t keep good records, but he guestimates it costs him about $75 an hour. He said his maintenence bills over the last 10 years (he’s owned it since 1985) have been very reasonable. But others on here have said that they don’t think it’s possible to operate a light twin for under $100 an hour. So what is the verdict? Does anyone out there have some hard numbers that they could share? I’d like to buy a reasonable older light twin (Apache, Twin Commanche, Travel Air, Aztec).  I’d really be interested in hearing from people who have owned and operated these planes and who really know what they cost over the long run. Thanks, Cap

Response:

Question:

found out that his is either 86 or 87, so i’ll send this along to him, thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, I have a 1987 85HP Force, and it has run fine since I got it, never really had a problem with it and it runs well.  I can still get maintenance parts for it (water pump, etc) for it just fine.  I would say they are not the best engines, but if you find one that runs good and is reliable, then to get it. People bad mouth them a lot, but for the most part they are a reliable, basic, and older-technology engine that is still practical for some uses. I like mine (for the cost). scott buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

There is a vin number on the engine.  Once you have the vin number a Mercury dealer SHOULD be able to tell you the year.  The other thing is, what year is the boat ?  Bayliner’s usually came with a Force engine. I have a 1998 Bayliner with a 120 Force.  My engine is basically a Merc engine.  I did some research on Force engines before I bought mine, that is how I know the little I do know about Force engines. If you do a search on Google for  force outboard you should be able to get most of the information you need. Ted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ted, is there a vin or some model number stamped on it to indicate the date you mentioned?  i don’t know anything about boats (i prefer to stay on land).  have you ordered any parts or accessories online?  if so any web sites you would recommended? thanks,tom You need to find out if it is a pre 1994 engine.  If it was made in (preferably after) 1994, you should have no problems – it is basically a Mercury engine.  If it was made prior to 1994, flip a coin.  The pre 1994 Force engines were either very good OR very bad – almost no middle ground with them.  You may have problems getting parts for a pre 1994 Force. BTW, be very careful if buying a new prop for the engine – they used 3 different types of prop hubs. buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

Where I come from, Force engines are giveaways.  I mean that they don’t have much value when a dealer looks at the boat.  Every dealer I know would tell you to steer clear from Force engines.  They are built on older technology, have less power and don’t have good reliability.  However, I own a 75hp Force engine.  It’s a 1997 and it does me quite well.  It runs like a top and I have never had problems with it.  I can get all the parts for my motor still.  I will probably run it into the ground then put on another 2 stroke (but not a Force).  It does seem a little under powered for a 75hp. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

Tom, I have a 1987 85HP Force, and it has run fine since I got it, never really had a problem with it and it runs well.  I can still get maintenance parts for it (water pump, etc) for it just fine.  I would say they are not the best engines, but if you find one that runs good and is reliable, then to get it. People bad mouth them a lot, but for the most part they are a reliable, basic, and older-technology engine that is still practical for some uses.   I like mine (for the cost). scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

Scott, Do you know where a prop for said engine could be found? db

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, I have a 1987 85HP Force, and it has run fine since I got it, never really had a problem with it and it runs well.  I can still get maintenance parts for it (water pump, etc) for it just fine.  I would say they are not the best engines, but if you find one that runs good and is reliable, then to get it. People bad mouth them a lot, but for the most part they are a reliable, basic, and older-technology engine that is still practical for some uses. I like mine (for the cost). scott buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

You need to find out if it is a pre 1994 engine.  If it was made in (preferably after) 1994, you should have no problems – it is basically a Mercury engine.  If it was made prior to 1994, flip a coin.  The pre 1994 Force engines were either very good OR very bad – almost no middle ground with them.  You may have problems getting parts for a pre 1994 Force. BTW, be very careful if buying a new prop for the engine – they used 3 different types of prop hubs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

ted, is there a vin or some model number stamped on it to indicate the date you mentioned?  i don’t know anything about boats (i prefer to stay on land).  have you ordered any parts or accessories online?  if so any web sites you would recommended? thanks,tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to find out if it is a pre 1994 engine.  If it was made in (preferably after) 1994, you should have no problems – it is basically a Mercury engine.  If it was made prior to 1994, flip a coin.  The pre 1994 Force engines were either very good OR very bad – almost no middle ground with them.  You may have problems getting parts for a pre 1994 Force. BTW, be very careful if buying a new prop for the engine – they used 3 different types of prop hubs. buddy just bought a bayliner with this motor.  just wanted to know if its an ok one and a good place to buy parts online. thanks everyone

Response:

Question:

For supplementary heat, I recommend getting a Coleman Black Cat.  Burns the little disposable (or refillable if you try hard enuf) propane canisters, says eight hours on one can.  Genuine catalytic heater (unlike the rest of the radiant space heaters I’ve seen), meant for enclosed spaces (does require six square inches of fresh air), but not while you’re asleep. About $50-55.  Doesn’t need electricity, so it’s a good backup for when nothing else is working. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GET one or more of those electric ceramic space heaters – best places are Target, Wally World, K-Mart, etc – for $25 – 40.  They are small, put out a lot of heat and convenient.  We have found that one does our I have one, and it works fo rthe rear of the trailer.  I wanted another, in case my daughter came with us one weekend.  Unfortunately, Wally World and most other stores discontinue them after March 1.  It _never_ snows in Flagstaff in March or April, right?  _Not_! Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

I have an 84 Terry, that has a DuoTherm 9000 series furnace. The thing has only worked once in the 2 years that I have used the trailer, and our local RV repair shop couldn’t fix it last year and refuses to touch it this year. They couldn’t fix it?  That sounds like a cop-out to me.  Problematic model or not, there is obviously a problem somewhere, and simply logic determines that if you fix the problem, the furnace should work again.

        This is kind of a gray area- the DuoTherm 9000 series had so many problems, at this point it really is better to not even try to repair it. The main problem is that they had a lining in the heat chamber that would deteriorate, allowing the burner to burn through the heat chamber. The chamber is no longer available, anywhere (the last one I replaced was in 1995, and I had to search the country for it). They have gotten to the point where it could easily cost $3-400 to just fix enough to find out that the chamber is shot, and it cannot be fixed.         The bad part is that this furnace was so compact, that it is a major job to replace it with another, if you are going to try,I recommend the Hydroflame 8500 series, but this will not be cheap.         Unfortunately, I don’t have advice for the original question- other than (depending on the climate where you are)- possibly a heat pump, as has been suggested. — Chris Bryant On RVing- TV about RVs, by RVers  

Response:

GET one or more of those electric ceramic space heaters – best places are Target, Wally World, K-Mart, etc – for $25 – 40.  They are small, put out a lot of heat and convenient.  We have found that one does our

I have one, and it works fo rthe rear of the trailer.  I wanted another, in case my daughter came with us one weekend.  Unfortunately, Wally World and most other stores discontinue them after March 1.  It _never_ snows in Flagstaff in March or April, right?  _Not_! Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

They couldn’t fix it?  That sounds like a cop-out to me.  [snip]

They claim it’s the liability issue.  Anyone who worked on it would be considered liable should we turn up CO’d to death one morning after using it. If they can’t *find* the problem, especially if they are refusing to even look at it this year (!), might I suggest that a new RV dealership should be your first priority.

This is a service center, not a dealership.  And yes, I’ve considered that angle. Even if just for resale value, it’s worth getting it fixed..  The next person that owns your trailer may appreciate having a functioning furnace that works without 110V.  I know that I would steer away from any used trailer that I was going to have to spend alot of money on replacing the furnace..

Good point. [snipped rest] Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

I have an 84 Terry, that has a DuoTherm 9000 series furnace. The thing has only worked once in the 2 years that I have used the trailer, and our local RV repair shop couldn’t fix it last year and refuses to touch it this year.

They couldn’t fix it?  That sounds like a cop-out to me.  Problematic model or not, there is obviously a problem somewhere, and simply logic determines that if you fix the problem, the furnace should work again. If they can’t *find* the problem, especially if they are refusing to even look at it this year (!), might I suggest that a new RV dealership should be your first priority. Even if just for resale value, it’s worth getting it fixed..  The next person that owns your trailer may appreciate having a functioning furnace that works without 110V.  I know that I would steer away from any used trailer that I was going to have to spend alot of money on replacing the furnace.. As we _never_ "boondock", is there an electric furnace that could be used in place of the propane one?  Or am I stuck with replacing that one or going to space heaters?

Personally, I’d go to space heaters, that way you can place it at whatever spot in the trailer that you need the heat.  Someone else suggested one of the quartz-halogen models, and yes, they do throw a great deal of heat, but they are considered a fire hazard, and often have big protective grills on them to prevent things from getting too close to the elements.  The heat they radiate means that they can’t be placed too closely to furniture, walls, and other things that can heatup and combust..  If you can place them in an out of the way corner somewhere (And you don’t have kids) then they great.. Otherwise, try one of the small enclosed space heaters.  Although they don’t throw as much heat, they are considerably safer. If your really handy, I suppose you could even pipe one of these space heaters into the original ductwork from the furnace, if you do decide to pull it out. — Mark,  Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Response:

GET one or more of those electric ceramic space heaters – best places are Target, Wally World, K-Mart, etc – for $25 – 40.  They are small, put out a lot of heat and convenient.  We have found that one does our 35 foot coach satisfactorily. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I carry a little quartz rod heater that I use on the infrequent occasions that I am hooked to shore power in cold weather.  It’s a small one because my rig is small. Have you considered replacing your a/c with a heat pump with aux heat strips?  Depending on how cold it is where you camp, that might work for you. I have an 84 Terry, that has a DuoTherm 9000 series furnace. The thing has only worked once in the 2 years that I have used the trailer, and our local RV repair shop couldn’t fix it last year and refuses to touch it this year. As we _never_ "boondock", is there an electric furnace that could be used in place of the propane one?  Or am I stuck with replacing that one or going to space heaters? This is, BTW, the furnace that caused DouTherm a lot of trouble. Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

I have an 84 Terry, that has a DuoTherm 9000 series furnace. The thing has only worked once in the 2 years that I have used the trailer, and our local RV repair shop couldn’t fix it last year and refuses to touch it this year. As we _never_ "boondock", is there an electric furnace that could be used in place of the propane one?  Or am I stuck with replacing that one or going to space heaters? This is, BTW, the furnace that caused DouTherm a lot of trouble. Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

I carry a little quartz rod heater that I use on the infrequent occasions that I am hooked to shore power in cold weather.  It’s a small one because my rig is small. Have you considered replacing your a/c with a heat pump with aux heat strips?  Depending on how cold it is where you camp, that might work for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an 84 Terry, that has a DuoTherm 9000 series furnace. The thing has only worked once in the 2 years that I have used the trailer, and our local RV repair shop couldn’t fix it last year and refuses to touch it this year. As we _never_ "boondock", is there an electric furnace that could be used in place of the propane one?  Or am I stuck with replacing that one or going to space heaters? This is, BTW, the furnace that caused DouTherm a lot of trouble. Chuck Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I’ve decided to get a self-cleaning humidifier for my furnace.  There seem to be different types, one of which is the old drum-type with a run-off to keep fresh water in it, and another which allows water to flow over some kind of plate and then down the drain. Can anyone recommend one of these?

After a year, we are happy with our Aprilaire. Tom     Need info on COTTAGES, CABINS and RECREATIONAL living?         Check out "Cottage Living!" On-Line book store!                   http://www.cottageliving.com

Response:

I’ve decided to get a self-cleaning humidifier for my furnace.  There seem to be different types, one of which is the old drum-type with a run-off to keep fresh water in it, and another which allows water to flow over some kind of plate and then down the drain. Can anyone recommend one of these?

Yes, stay away from the rotating drum, otherwise known as the mold growing culture zone of sickness.  Stick with the flow through type of which Aprilaire is a very good brand and Carrier makes almost exact copies for a bit less.  Cost more but better design. — Paul Prior MD     Get rebates on online purchases – up to 25% cash back. Ashland, KY USA   Including Disney,Borders,DVDexpress,800.com,Dell, petstore Using Spamkiller  iBaby, etoys, JCrew,800-flowers,PlanetRX,Avon & many more. so spam away…   try:  http://www.ebates.com/index.jhtml?referrer=pprior

Response:

I’ve decided to get a self-cleaning humidifier for my furnace.  There seem to be different types, one of which is the old drum-type with a run-off to keep fresh water in it, and another which allows water to flow over some kind of plate and then down the drain. Can anyone recommend one of these? -Pat PS – Remove "noSpam." from return address when replying.

Response:

Question:

 how easy is it to convert  from a gas range to an electric range and does any one have info if gas ranges with electric ignition can be lit manually in case of power failure.

Response:

how easy is it to convert  from a gas range to an electric range and does any one have info if gas ranges with electric ignition can be lit manually in case of power failure. You need a 220 line for an electric range. We have been able to light the burners but not the oven during a power failure. Cathi

Response:

 how easy is it to convert  from a gas range to an electric range

For an electric range you need a 220 volt circuit run to th location. In order to do this, you need to have the spare capacity in you electrical service panel. If you have the capacity, the expense will be minimal depending, of course, on how hard it is to run the wires. If you do not have the capacity, then you are looking at an upgrade to your electrical service. That tyep of upgrade can have different levels of expense depending on what you need. I suggest calling a few (3) electricians and getting some estimates. does any one have info if gas ranges with electric ignition can be lit manually in case of power failure.

Most *burners* on ranges with electric ignition can be lit with a match. The gas valves are manual and don’t depend on electricity. Only the ignitors (spark producers) require electricity. On the other hand, the *oven* will not work without electricity. The oven uses a glow plug that must reach a certain temperature before the gas valve will open. Since an oven turns on and off based on the thermostat setting, even if you could fool it into thinking the glow plug was on, you’d have to do it everytime the oven cycled.

Response:

Question:

I want to re-route the clothes dryer vent on the house I just bought. It is an older house, 3 bedroom split level w/ half basement, circa 1962.  The dryer, located in the basement, currently vents up into the front yard right under a ’soffit’ that is under the bedrooms, about 4" above the ground.  I suspect moisture from the exhaust is kind of getting trapped under this soffit and causing some mold buildup since the dryer vent is hidden behind some bushes.  I think the bushes and the soffit together are trapping the exhaust.  I’d like to re-route it to the back yard from the basement. What is the maximum practical distance the dryer exhaust can run for your average (natural gas) clothes dryer?  I am going to do this right and use the rigid metal ducting like one would use on a furnace ducting, not that plastic flex crap.  I would think there might be some limitations for me on distance, rise and run, and or number of corners it turns (lint would get trapped in corners)?  Can fans (set inside an exhaust duct) be bought that extend the max distance?  The simpler the better.  Any suggestions much appreciated! Todd Haverstock —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

What is the maximum practical distance the dryer exhaust can run for your average (natural gas) clothes dryer?

I don’t remember the # but I think it was at www.codecheck.com I’m not sure there is an average — best to check with the documents that came with the dryer.  If you don’t have them any more, the manufacturer should be able to tell you given the model number.  Certainly, higher capacity dryers will have bigger venting requirements than smaller ones. I would think there might be some limitations for me on distance, rise and run, and or number of corners it turns (lint would get trapped in corners)? I’ve never seen specific rise/run limits, but I guess it’s possible.  The number of corners is critical.  Each 90 degree bend counts the same as many (I seem to remember something like feet of straight pipe.  Also, corregated pipe counts as more feet than flat-wall pipe.

Corners are very critical….each bend is 5′ by code. Can fans (set inside an exhaust duct) be bought that extend the max distance? I’ve never heard of that being done, and can’t imagine it’s legal due to the lint built-up problem.

The do have special fans that can extend the distance.  The fans have to be built to handle the lint problem. Sanjay Nasta www.builtonline.com The Homeowner’s Resource

Response:

What is the maximum practical distance the dryer exhaust can run for your average (natural gas) clothes dryer?

I’m not sure there is an average — best to check with the documents that came with the dryer.  If you don’t have them any more, the manufacturer should be able to tell you given the model number.  Certainly, higher capacity dryers will have bigger venting requirements than smaller ones. I would think there might be some limitations for me on distance, rise and run, and or number of corners it turns (lint would get trapped in corners)?

I’ve never seen specific rise/run limits, but I guess it’s possible.  The number of corners is critical.  Each 90 degree bend counts the same as many (I seem to remember something like feet of straight pipe.  Also, corregated pipe counts as more feet than flat-wall pipe. Can fans (set inside an exhaust duct) be bought that extend the max distance?

I’ve never heard of that being done, and can’t imagine it’s legal due to the lint built-up problem. — New York University School of Medicine

Response:

Question:

Thanks for all the good info.  A stoopid question: Why pump in the bottom and let it come out the top, rather than pump into top till it fills up?  Seems like some loss will occur when "quickly" sticking the bottom plug in…

There is no other way for the displaced air to escape.  When the top plug is replaced, the bottom plug does not drain very quickly due to vacuum.  Only a drop will spill out as long as the top plug is sealed. Boatbasin www.boatbasin.com

Response:

<"Steve wrote new"; Not me Dave my shop, what is your shop labour rate!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<     We charge $68.00 hour for labour, You get $68?  Time for a review here…..   — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

<"Steve wrote new"; Not me Dave my shop, what is your shop labour rate!!!!     We charge $68.00 hour for labour, You get $68?  Time for a review here…..  

I’m $60/hr (that’s about $40 US). — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. The worst part is that to many of the mechanics don’t know their ass from a whole in the ground. — — Jim To err is human, to forgive is against my policy

| | <"Steve wrote new"; Not me Dave my shop, what is your | shop labour rate!!!! |

|

|     We charge $68.00 hour for labour, | | You get $68?  Time for a review here…..   | | |I’m $60/hr (that’s about $40 US). | | |– |Regards, | |          Dave Brown |          Brown’s Marina |          http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/ | |

Response:

Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm.

I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here. — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

Dave, The only way I can afford to boat is by supplementing my income.  How many green cards do you want? — — Jim I have my wife on a 4 year lease with an option to buy.

| | Dave, | You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer | season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. | |I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here. | | | | |– |Regards, | |          Dave Brown |          Brown’s Marina |          http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/ | |

Response:

Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here.

  No permit needed, if you pack in plain view! Bk

Response:

Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here.   No permit needed, if you pack in plain view! Bk

One of the sad things about Florida is that if you can fog a mirror, you can pay $10 or something silly and get a concealed weapon permit. Personally, I think anyone who wants to carry a pistol and who is not a law enforcement official should have to wear that weapon in plain sight. That way, you can cross the street or duck into a store when he comes by, in case a sudden spasm hits him or a cosmic ray causes him to suffer a dangerous thought. An alternative is to lock all the concealed pistol packers into a bar for however long it takes for just one to emerge alive. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Anarchy is against the law.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here.   No permit needed, if you pack in plain view! Bk One of the sad things about Florida is that if you can fog a mirror, you can pay $10 or something silly and get a concealed weapon permit. Personally, I think anyone who wants to carry a pistol and who is not a law enforcement official should have to wear that weapon in plain sight. That way, you can cross the street or duck into a store when he comes by, in case a sudden spasm hits him or a cosmic ray causes him to suffer a dangerous thought. An alternative is to lock all the concealed pistol packers into a bar for however long it takes for just one to emerge alive. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Anarchy is against the law.

In the mid to late 80’s I used to travel to Jacksonville Florida to participate in an International Softball Tournament. We stayed at the Sea Turtle Inn on Jax Beach or Neptune Beach, can’t remeber. Got a ride one night from a gal who owned a neat little MG convertible. She asked me to get something out of the glove box and when I opened it there was a nice little chrome plated .25 inside. I mean this was in an open glove box in a convertible parked unattended on a Hotel parking lot. When I asked her about it she simply sluffed it off saying that she had a carry permit for it apparently missing the point about having the gun in the location where it was. Now obviously I would like to think that most gun owners are more reponsible than she was however I must admit I do prefer out restrictive gun carrying/ ownership laws. Rick

Response:

"He’s a Merc man, Dave. He doesn’t have to work as long on the same motor to fix it, and fewer of them break to begin with."

Your retort should be along the lines of "Well, yeah, Merc’s require so many special tools to fix them that the average owner doesn’t have a chance to screw it up before he brings it in, and anyway, Merc’s just rot away to powder before they have a chance to get old and break like OMC’s do."

I had a few I was going to zing, but I didn’t want people to think I didn’t respect them as a company. — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When it is through draining, screw the pump tube into the bottom drain hole and pump in lube until it runs out of the top vent.  Put the top vent plug in, unscrew the pump and quickly stick the bottom plug in. Why pump in the bottom and let it come out the top, rather than pump into top till it fills up?  Seems like some loss will occur when "quickly" sticking the bottom plug in… You have two choices:  1 When I was 12 and had a 33hp Evinrude on a 13′ Whaler (great little boat, I just bought my kids one two years ago) I did not know that a lube pump existed.  What I did in those days was to try to do what made sense. The first time I changed the lube I removed the drain plug and the lube was coming out extremely slowly and every now and then would stop and then come out pretty good for a second before repeating the cycle. It occurred to me that there was no open vent in the lower unit like there is in a lawnmower engine or motorcycle engine (the other things I worked on at that time). There is, however, a two-purpose vent plug in them: it is a vent and a level indicator. I removed the upper plug and the lube came pouring out. After the lube was all out, I put the bottom plug in and began to try to put lube in the top hole.  The main problem was that if I did not put the nozzle of the tube all the way in the hole, the lube ran out as fast as I squeezed it in. If I put the nozzle up flush against the hole, the lube could not force air out as it went in. I fought this battle for probably an hour until the first tube was empty (with most of it on me). At this point, I noticed the tube’s nozzle had THREADS in the plastic tip. I screwed the nozzle into the plug hole and tried to figure out how this helped.  After about two hours of messing around with this fiasco my Dad came home and looked at the mess in the front yard (yes, all the grass died in that area). He smiled and just said "look hard and keep thinking". After a few more minutes it occurred to me.  I pulled the plug out of the bottom and crammed the new tube in the hole and "threaded" it in.  I then squeezed the tube until lube ran out of the top hole (which indicated the proper level). I got the drain plug ready and swapped them out as quickly as I could, losing only a few ounces of lube (but getting it all over me again).  Dad came out and told me that I had done nicely, but that it would help to put the vent plug in before trying to get the lube nozzle out and the bottom plug in so fast. You could put on old clothes and duplicate this procedure….            OR   2  Buy a cheap pump, slightly trim your unit until it is level (as opposed to fully down) and remove both plugs (bottom one first is slightly better). Drain all the old lube out. Screw the lube pump into the bottom hole. Pump lube in until it runs out of the top hole. Put in the top plug. Grab your rag, unscrew the lube pump and stick the plug in. Wipe off unit. Done. 10 minutes (with 8 minutes of it spent draining). Piece of cake. Holler back and I’ll have you replacing gimbal bearings and rebuilding trim pumps (they are almost as easy)..

 What a great reply!!!  Thanks Mike, and **THANKS** to everyone else that replied.  It really helps us newbies out.   And as soon as I figure out what a gimbal bearing and trim pump are, I’ll be asking about them (RTFM, which is on the way…).   See ya on-line! — Bruce K (Please fix return address if responding directly via e-mail.)

Response:

<"Steve wrote new"; Like Dave said, i wish we could move south, it would great!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here. — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

You have two choices: 1 When I was 12 and had a 33hp Evinrude on a 13′ Whaler (great little boat, I just bought my kids one two years ago) I did not know that a lube pump existed. What I did in those days … Holler back and I’ll have you replacing gimbal bearings and rebuilding trim pumps (they are almost as easy)..

And you will not get a description like THIS in any repair manual. Bravo.

Response:

Dave, You need to move south where the boating season is longer, hence a longer season for mechanics, and $65 – $85 US dollars are the norm. I keep hearing that, but those carry permits you guys have keep me up here.

Yea, but I’d think those 50% tax rates you guys got would get you down here!

Response:

When it is through draining, screw the pump tube into the bottom drain hole and pump in lube until it runs out of the top vent.  Put the top vent plug in, unscrew the pump and quickly stick the bottom plug in. Why pump in the bottom and let it come out the top, rather than pump into top till it fills up?  Seems like some loss will occur when "quickly" sticking the bottom plug in…

You have two choices:  1 When I was 12 and had a 33hp Evinrude on a 13′ Whaler (great little boat, I just bought my kids one two years ago) I did not know that a lube pump existed.  What I did in those days was to try to do what made sense. The first time I changed the lube I removed the drain plug and the lube was coming out extremely slowly and every now and then would stop and then come out pretty good for a second before repeating the cycle. It occurred to me that there was no open vent in the lower unit like there is in a lawnmower engine or motorcycle engine (the other things I worked on at that time). There is, however, a two-purpose vent plug in them: it is a vent and a level indicator. I removed the upper plug and the lube came pouring out. After the lube was all out, I put the bottom plug in and began to try to put lube in the top hole.  The main problem was that if I did not put the nozzle of the tube all the way in the hole, the lube ran out as fast as I squeezed it in. If I put the nozzle up flush against the hole, the lube could not force air out as it went in. I fought this battle for probably an hour until the first tube was empty (with most of it on me). At this point, I noticed the tube’s nozzle had THREADS in the plastic tip. I screwed the nozzle into the plug hole and tried to figure out how this helped.  After about two hours of messing around with this fiasco my Dad came home and looked at the mess in the front yard (yes, all the grass died in that area). He smiled and just said "look hard and keep thinking". After a few more minutes it occurred to me.  I pulled the plug out of the bottom and crammed the new tube in the hole and "threaded" it in.  I then squeezed the tube until lube ran out of the top hole (which indicated the proper level). I got the drain plug ready and swapped them out as quickly as I could, losing only a few ounces of lube (but getting it all over me again).  Dad came out and told me that I had done nicely, but that it would help to put the vent plug in before trying to get the lube nozzle out and the bottom plug in so fast. You could put on old clothes and duplicate this procedure….            OR   2  Buy a cheap pump, slightly trim your unit until it is level (as opposed to fully down) and remove both plugs (bottom one first is slightly better). Drain all the old lube out. Screw the lube pump into the bottom hole. Pump lube in until it runs out of the top hole. Put in the top plug. Grab your rag, unscrew the lube pump and stick the plug in. Wipe off unit. Done. 10 minutes (with 8 minutes of it spent draining). Piece of cake. Holler back and I’ll have you replacing gimbal bearings and rebuilding trim pumps (they are almost as easy)..

Response:

"He’s a Merc man, Dave. He doesn’t have to work as long on the same motor to fix it, and fewer of them break to begin with." I had a few I was going to zing, but I didn’t want people to think I didn’t respect them as a company.

Sorry to draft your sail, mate. Let ‘er rip!

Response:

I have always done my own work.  Impellor kits seem to run around $40 or so including the housing and impellors and gaskets alone are around $25.  Gear lube does NOT have to be drained to do an impellor job on an alpha drive. Buy yourself a cheap lube pump ($15) and some lube and just plan to do the job yourself each fall (don’t let the old lube sit in the unit over winter). Lube change is a fairly painless job and the only parts you will ever need are the fiber gaskets on the vent and drain plug (although some people reuse them a few times).  Pop out both plugs and let ‘er drain into a bucket. When it is through draining, screw the pump tube into the bottom drain hole and pump in lube until it runs out of the top vent.  Put the top vent plug in, unscrew the pump and quickly stick the bottom plug in. Wipe off the unit and you are done.

Mike,   Thanks for all the good info.  A stoopid question: Why pump in the bottom and let it come out the top, rather than pump into top till it fills up?  Seems like some loss will occur when "quickly" sticking the bottom plug in… Bruce K (Please fix return address if responding directly via e-mail.)

Response:

We charge $68.00 hour for labour, You get $68? Time for a review here…..

Dave, you’re setting yourself up here. Now comes the punchline: "He’s a Merc man, Dave. He doesn’t have to work as long on the same motor to fix it, and fewer of them break to begin with." Your retort should be along the lines of "Well, yeah, Merc’s require so many special tools to fix them that the average owner doesn’t have a chance to screw it up before he brings it in, and anyway, Merc’s just rot away to powder before they have a chance to get old and break like OMC’s do."

Response:

Two things to check for that are cheap.  Firts is fishing line behind the prop.  Second is to replace the little fiber washers on the drain and vent plugs. Then check by loosening the drain plug after each trip out.  Water or whitish oil means you still have a problem.  The synthetic lube tolerates a little water better than the regular.  $150’s not too bad for the impeller replacement but I would have expected it to include the lube.  You have to drain the elube to replace the impeller anyway.

Response:

I have always done my own work.  Impellor kits seem to run around $40 or so including the housing and impellors and gaskets alone are around $25.  Gear lube does NOT have to be drained to do an impellor job on an alpha drive. Buy yourself a cheap lube pump ($15) and some lube and just plan to do the job yourself each fall (don’t let the old lube sit in the unit over winter). Lube change is a fairly painless job and the only parts you will ever need are the fiber gaskets on the vent and drain plug (although some people reuse them a few times).  Pop out both plugs and let ‘er drain into a bucket. When it is through draining, screw the pump tube into the bottom drain hole and pump in lube until it runs out of the top vent.  Put the top vent plug in, unscrew the pump and quickly stick the bottom plug in. Wipe off the unit and you are done.     Have fun. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two things to check for that are cheap.  Firts is fishing line behind the prop. Second is to replace the little fiber washers on the drain and vent plugs. Then check by loosening the drain plug after each trip out.  Water or whitish oil means you still have a problem.  The synthetic lube tolerates a little water better than the regular.  $150’s not too bad for the impeller replacement but I would have expected it to include the lube.  You have to drain the elube to replace the impeller anyway.

Response:

    We charge $68.00 hour for labour,

You get $68?  Time for a review here…..   — Regards,           Dave Brown           Brown’s Marina           http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/

Response:

I just had the water pump replaced in my Mercruiser 260, Alpha I, 1981 Searay runabout.  I just purchased the boat, my first, from a friend who had this done every year. Prior to performing the work, the shop called to say they found water in the gear oil, and recommended "replacing all the seals in the drive", about $800. I declined to have the work done, and have been asking around, getting all sorts of different information.  Some seem to think the gear oil and water will get whipped together and be emulsified, so a look-see would show if large amounts of water were present, but not small.  The repair shop said to crack the bottom-most screw on the drive after the first few hours and see if any water drains out.  Other friends say this is normal, water always gets into 20 year old drives. Any thoughts from out in boat land? One last side-note: This shop charged $150 for impeller kit replacement, then another $75 for gear oil replacement.  Did I get screwed? Thanks in advance for any help! Bruce K:  gittin’ ‘idgekated! (Please fix return address if responding directly via e-mail.)

Response:

Yes, but did you enjoy it. — — Jim Both of his feet are firmly planted in the air.

|I just had the water pump replaced in my Mercruiser 260, Alpha I, 1981 |Searay runabout.  I just purchased the boat, my first, from a friend who |had this done every year. | |Prior to performing the work, the shop called to say they found water in |the gear oil, and recommended "replacing all the seals in the drive", |about $800. | |I declined to have the work done, and have been asking around, getting |all sorts of different information.  Some seem to think the gear oil and |water will get whipped together and be emulsified, so a look-see would |show if large amounts of water were present, but not small.  The repair |shop said to crack the bottom-most screw on the drive after the first |few hours and see if any water drains out.  Other friends say this is |normal, water always gets into 20 year old drives. | |Any thoughts from out in boat land? | |One last side-note: This shop charged $150 for impeller kit replacement, |then another $75 for gear oil replacement.  Did I get screwed? | |Thanks in advance for any help! |Bruce K:  gittin’ ‘idgekated! |(Please fix return address if responding directly via e-mail.)

Response:

<"Steve wrote"; Yes you are getting screw by your marina.                   Your drive will take 32 oz. of oil i charge $16.00 to refill this is in Cand. Money      Now for what your friend said, he is nuts if the, shaft surface are ok and you reseal     your drive you will have no problem will water.     Now for the cost in my shop can reseal Alpha in 3 hours, and that is back on the boat.     We charge $68.00 hour for labour, and for parts seal kit for upper about $60.00 and     for the lower around $68.00, for the impeller  $43.00 this is all in Cand. money.    See your friend had all the work done last year, drain and put High Performance oil in    this is better  oil. Get someone to pressure test the drive, this will tell if seal etc are bad.  The first thing you need to do is  look to see if the gaskets are bad or missing on the oil screw. Master Technician Mer .Products  Let me know how you make out!!!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just had the water pump replaced in my Mercruiser 260, Alpha I, 1981 Searay runabout.  I just purchased the boat, my first, from a friend who had this done every year. Prior to performing the work, the shop called to say they found water in the gear oil, and recommended "replacing all the seals in the drive", about $800. I declined to have the work done, and have been asking around, getting all sorts of different information.  Some seem to think the gear oil and water will get whipped together and be emulsified, so a look-see would show if large amounts of water were present, but not small.  The repair shop said to crack the bottom-most screw on the drive after the first few hours and see if any water drains out.  Other friends say this is normal, water always gets into 20 year old drives. Any thoughts from out in boat land? One last side-note: This shop charged $150 for impeller kit replacement, then another $75 for gear oil replacement.  Did I get screwed? Thanks in advance for any help! Bruce K:  gittin’ ‘idgekated! (Please fix return address if responding directly via e-mail.)

Response:

Question:

great post I have thought of it and was scared  of the pollution, oil spots, exhaust Maybe I will call the city too…….hmmmm cancer….grin…… Hey….but then…I sweep mine from the street……grin……. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, this year i really hit the jackpot — I got the county leaf vacuuming guys to dump a truckload of already shredded leaves on my property! Once they got over their shock at the idea and decided i wasnt totally deranged (and the supervisor came by and made sure I REALLY wanted this stuff dumped on my yard), they were happy to get rid of the load so easily. Sure beats running around the neighborhood scooping up leaves and then having to shred them myself. It used to be easier when folks bagged their leaves (but less eco-friendly, of course) because I could raid the roadside, but now that they do this vacuuming thing a couple of times it’s way too much work to collect the leaves myself. For once my tax dollars went to something I could use ……;^

Response:

there are commercial leaf shredders that cost around $100 US, and work fine. I’ve had one for ages — it’s basically a big, stationary weed whacker on legs. Uses heavier gauge plastic "string" than a weed whacker but otherwise it operates the same way. However, this year i really hit the jackpot — I got the county leaf vacuuming guys to dump a truckload of already shredded leaves on my property! Once they got over their shock at the idea and decided i wasnt totally deranged (and the supervisor came by and made sure I REALLY wanted this stuff dumped on my yard), they were happy to get rid of the load so easily. Sure beats running around the neighborhood scooping up leaves and then having to shred them myself. It used to be easier when folks bagged their leaves (but less eco-friendly, of course) because I could raid the roadside, but now that they do this vacuuming thing a couple of times it’s way too much work to collect the leaves myself. For once my tax dollars went to something I could use ……;^ — NOTE: to reply you must remove the X at the end of the email address given above/below. Sorry about the inconvenience, but i am totally fed up with the tons of junk mail coming over the Net! Judy Karpen                        "The line between scientific genius and Naval Research Lab               line from The Brain that Wouldnt Die Washington DC                         garden: Zone 7 (Maryland) Do not send ANY commercial solicitations to this address!

Response:

I’ve thought about, but haven’t tried, putting them into a short trashcan type container and using a string trimmer to grind them up. Anyone think it could work?

I just finished chopping up about thirty bags of leaves using this method and an alternate. BTW, big trashcans are just fine too. I used a 30"  tall metal one. The taller sides cut down on the wind blow losses. MY alternate method (which was much more effective) was to put a paint stripper/grinder (?) attachment (with a long post) on the power drill and to use that. (I’m not sure – it had about twelve wires which were looped onto a central wheel. Whatever it was, it was effective) It was my Dad’s idea — he’s been chewing up leaves for mulch using this method for quite a few years now. It worked quite well. My cautions would include keeping an eye on the air vents and opening up the drill to clean them out when they become partially blocked. You will know when it is time, becasue the engine will start to overheat  I had to do this once towards the end of the leaf chopping. Actually, I think it was the first time in YEARS that the drill and been stripped and cleaned, but that is another story. And wear eye guards. I had quite an accumulation of twigs — and they can be flung upwards. Someone earlier on the thread asked why you would grind leaves if they are going into a compost pile. Well I can answer that.  I don’t grind all my leaves, just bags that are mostly maple leaves. Maple leaves compact and mat very fast. They dont break down easily when left alone. Grinding them up prevents the heavy matting and speeds the decompositon. Of course, the horse poop in the pile helps too. I have two cubic yard piles cooking out in the back yard. One was started a month ago, and the other ten days ago. The older one should be just about be dirt by freeze-up. I’ve turned it once and will be turning both this coming weekend. BTW: The garbage disposer idea is hilarious.  I love the idea.

Me too. I think it is quite brilliant. Shirley

Response:

I’ve thought about, but haven’t tried, putting them into a short trashcan type container and using a string trimmer to grind them up. Anyone think it could work? BTW: The garbage disposer idea is hilarious.  I love the idea.

Don’t use an electric string trimmer. I did a few years ago. The leaves in the trash stopped cooling air blowing through the motor, it overheated and burnt out. — Peter "We need New and ORIGINAL ideas which have well and truly tested over time !"

Response:

I just finished shredding about 10 garbage cans (30 gal?) full of leaves. After several different tries, I decided the best way is to put the string trimmer in a can, throw about 2 feet of **loose** leaves on top, then shred them.  You’re actually bringing the trimmer up through the leaves as they are shredded.  Then I just add another 2 feet, and so on.  I ended up with maybe ONE garbage can of fine, shredded leaves, which I will use to mulch once we have our killing frosts. — Mary Ellen Magoc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve thought about, but haven’t tried, putting them into a short trashcan type container and using a string trimmer to grind them up. Anyone think it could work? BTW: The garbage disposer idea is hilarious.  I love the idea.

Response:

I never thought I’d become a convert to leaf blowers, but those blowers with a vacuum feature are just unbeatable for disposing large quantities of leaves.  They are noisy and your neighbors may hate you for using them, but they don’t take a lot of time to get the job done.  My Sears Craftsman gas blower is very noisy, requiring hearing protection, but it can suck up all the leaves and shred them down to 1/16th of their original volumn in a swoosh.  Using leaf blowers just to blow the leaves away from your own yard and into the street(in effect to your neighbors’ yards) is unethical, but the vacuum feature solves this problem. — *  Do NOT modify my e-mail address for correspondence. *  It is valid as stated.

Response:

Yes it sounds dumb…..g…… I thought of getting a 1/2 hp disposal, a plastic sink, a hose, and pushing the leaves through the disposal into a screened  5 gal  bucket. I used the  mulcher mower last year, did a great job, I lost about 25 per cent do to wind.

If you have just one small tree you might be able to work its leaves through a garbage disposal. These leaves take forever to break down

Have you considered the possibility that chopping up the leaves may actually be the cause of the problem? I end up mulching and bagging some leaves with the mower just because I’m trying to get at the grass clippings beneath. These additions to the pile solve the nitrogen problem but they are nearly impenatrable to air. I have to poke holes through my compost pile to allow the bottom layers to breathe. Full, loose leaves (what I have most of) allow a lot of air penetration. BTW, the leaves are about 2/3 done already (8 cubic yards left from an original 24?).   -Paul

Response:

You could build one into a potting bench with a wall switch mounted to turn it off and on.                                                                  Nelson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just keep a little bucket on your sink, and when you peel etc. drop them in the bucket.  Empty your bucket into your compost.  Been doing it for years Larry

Response:

Just keep a little bucket on your sink, and when you peel etc. drop them in the bucket.  Empty your bucket into your compost.  Been doing it for years Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, if you are committed, I’ll be your company.  I always thought it would be nice if there was a removeable container under the sink so the water could go through and I could put the shredded veggies on my compost. Anybody want to invent a disposal for gardeners? Marilyn in Ohio

Response:

Yes it sounds dumb…..g…… I thought of getting a 1/2 hp disposal, a plastic sink, a hose, and pushing the leaves through the disposal into a screened  5 gal  bucket. I used the  mulcher mower last year, did a great job, I lost about 25 per cent do to wind. These leaves take forever to break down Any tips? Thoughts? Hey…..should I have myself committed?…g…….

Response:

Well, if you are committed, I’ll be your company.  I always thought it would be nice if there was a removeable container under the sink so the water could go through and I could put the shredded veggies on my compost. Anybody want to invent a disposal for gardeners? Marilyn in Ohio

Response:

Any chance you could contact my neighbors and tell them to stop blowing their leaves in my yard?  The worst part is that they do it on purpose–what rude pigs. Carol

Response:

It’s been done before.  As a matter of fact, Sears sells a leaf shredder, called Flowtron(I think), that’s based precisely on this concept.  The only difference with the Sears leaf shredder is that the leaves "FLOW" throw the strings on the Flowtron and as they pass throw the strings they get ground up in one pass. I’ve thought about, but haven’t tried, putting them into a short trashcan type container and using a string trimmer to grind them up. Anyone think it could work? BTW: The garbage disposer idea is hilarious.  I love the idea.

– *  Do NOT modify my e-mail address for correspondence. *  It is valid as stated.

Response:

Any chance you could contact my neighbors and tell them to stop blowing their leaves in my yard?  

i know what your saying, but  i just let mother nature and a windy day, blow mine into  the neighbor’s yard. but thats  only if  i  haven’t  had time  to  mower-mulch  them. z/5    kathy        lower south east MI                    It is better to say ‘ I don’t know ‘,                    than to lie about  it.                                                  Ignas Bernstein

Response:

Thanks, this is a better idea than I had. I thought later of getting a SS sink, install it on the potting bench, then hooking up the disposal beneath. Garage sales here I come looking for a sink thanks again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could build one into a potting bench with a wall switch mounted to turn it off and on.

Response:

I’ve thought about, but haven’t tried, putting them into a short trashcan type container and using a string trimmer to grind them up. Anyone think it could work? BTW: The garbage disposer idea is hilarious.  I love the idea.

Response:

i use a Black and Decker Blower/Vac..it has a hose hooked to a net that fits over a trash can..sucks up the leaves and chops them very nicely..a Garbage disposal will not work without flushing much water with the leaves..otherwise the leaves will just clog inside of the disposal..very poor idea. i’ve seen a leaf shredder at sears..designed for just shredding leaves…just my .02 worth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes it sounds dumb…..g…… I thought of getting a 1/2 hp disposal, a plastic sink, a hose, and pushing the leaves through the disposal into a screened  5 gal  bucket. I used the  mulcher mower last year, did a great job, I lost about 25 per cent do to wind. These leaves take forever to break down Any tips? Thoughts? Hey…..should I have myself committed?…g…….

Response:

Question:

It happend to my 95 explorer and the whole tranny needed to be replaced. Same things –burnt smell to the fluid and flashing OD light. The only good news was I had the extended warranty and saved about $3K. I am beginning to wonder about this 95 Explorer. It seems to be in the shop too much.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? thx

Response:

Hi, I believe your onboard computer needs to be reset. Did you disconnect the battery or have a new stereo installed? Ben I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? thx

Ben Poels Queen’s University Kingston, ON, Canada

Response:

Count the number of flashes and multiply by $100…. Then take it in to the dealer …

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? thx

Response:

If the vehicle detected an overheat problem (such as driving up hills in overdrive thus forcing the trans. to cycle back and forth in and out of OD) then it can set a light. Check your trans. fluid for level and quality. If it smells burnt you may have a serious problem. Do a trans. service ASAP (change oil and filter) and check in the bottom of trans. pan while you’re there for any metal. It very well could be that it detected a short "problem" (temporary heating up) and resetting the light may be all you need to do. Chuck

Response:

If the vehicle detected an overheat problem (such as driving up hills in overdrive thus forcing the trans. to cycle back and forth in and out of OD) then it can set a light. Check your trans. fluid for level and quality. If it smells burnt you may have a serious problem. Do a trans. service ASAP (change oil and filter) and check in the bottom of trans. pan while you’re there for any metal. It very well could be that it detected a short "problem" (temporary heating up) and resetting the light may be all you need to do. Chuck

That’s a good suggestion. One thing to keep in mind, though. If the O/D cancel flashes due to a transmission overheat, it will go off once the transmission cools off. The light only flashes when the problem is present. If it goes away the light goes off, but the code is stored in the computer’s memory for 40 engine warm up cycles. Mark ‘30 Ford Model ‘A’                            ’98 Ford Taurus ‘59 Edsel Corsair                       ‘99 Mercury Cougar ‘94 Ford Club Wagon w/7.3L Hypermax Turbo Diesel ‘98 SunnyBrook Travel Trailer The views expressed above are mine, and mine alone.

Response:

I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? thx

Response:

I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer?

A flashing O/D light indicates that the EEC-V has found something wrong with the transmission. Get it looked at ASAP so a small problem doesn’t turn into a big problem. — Mark ‘30 Ford Model "A" Tudor            ’98 Ford Taurus ‘59 Edsel Corsair                ’99 Mercury Cougar ‘94 Ford Club Wagon 7.3L Diesel with Hypermax Turbo ‘98 SunnyBrook 33′ Travel Trailer The views expressed above are mine, and mine alone.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? A flashing O/D light indicates that the EEC-V has found something wrong with the transmission. Get it looked at ASAP so a small problem doesn’t turn into a big problem.

Small correction-the ‘95 Explorer is EEC-IV, not EEC-V. The difference is that EEC-IV codes can be read with a volt meter or a $35 code reader. These readers are available at most auto parts stores. Now to go outside and read the codes on my van-it started flashing the O/D cancel light! DOH! Mark ‘30 Ford Model ‘A’                            ’98 Ford Taurus ‘59 Edsel Corsair                       ‘99 Mercury Cougar ‘94 Ford Club Wagon w/7.3L Hypermax Turbo Diesel ‘98 SunnyBrook Travel Trailer The views expressed above are mine, and mine alone.

Response:

I had the same problem about a month ago, I got a code 632 stored in the computers memory , but this code wasn’t listed in my troubleshooting guide. I cleared all the stored codes and the light stopped flashing / no problems since If there is an intermittent problem the computer will store the code, so even if the problem corrects itself the light will still flash until the code is cleared I Hope this helps and pray that I don’t get the light again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 1995 Explorer w/automatic transmission. It has about 50k miles and the overdrive indicator light started flashing. Pushing the O/D button doesn’t change the flashing but it does engage/disengage overdrive. Any ideas what this might be so I’m prepared when I go to the dealer? A flashing O/D light indicates that the EEC-V has found something wrong with the transmission.

Visit my Mustang website at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/6471/                   {^ ^}     —- oooO-(_)-Oooo—– JB

Response:

Question:

Thanx for response.  We have changed thermostat twice already. John.

Response:

Thanx for response.  We have changed thermostat twice already. John.

If your battery voltage is low, the furnace will not restart but the fan keeps blowing.  This is a common Suburban furnace problem.  The furnace lights OK initially because the battery has recovered a bit.  Then by the time it cycles, the voltage has dropped a bit and the voltage sensing safety circuit in the furnace refuses to relight the burner. I ran into this after 5 days on the flatcars at Copper Canyon.  By the last morning, I could get just one furnace light before the battery voltage dropped too much.  Then the blower kept running just as you described.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If your battery voltage is low, the furnace will not restart but the fan keeps blowing.  This is a common Suburban furnace problem.  The furnace lights OK initially because the battery has recovered a bit.  Then by the time it cycles, the voltage has dropped a bit and the voltage sensing safety circuit in the furnace refuses to relight the burner. I ran into this after 5 days on the flatcars at Copper Canyon.  By the last morning, I could get just one furnace light before the battery voltage dropped too much.  Then the blower kept running just as you described. Gee – the trailer involved is permanent (not towed).  It is a Prowler Regal.  Anyway, there is NO battery and has not been for several years.  Problem started with replacement sf35 furnace.  The trailer does have the usual power converter, so you would thing the converted 120-12v elec would suffice wouldn’t you? Thanx for interest. John.

I’m not at all sure.  The usual 120-12v converter needs a battery as a filter or ballast to even out the output voltage swings.  Without a battery, you get a lot of 60-cycle AC riding on top of the DC voltage. This can very well be enough to confuse integrated circuitry and can be very hard on refrigerators, radios, and the like.  Also, without the battery as a filter, any power line transients ride right into your appliances. Wow!  I had never heard of that one.  I had a Citation in same situation for 11 years and never expereienced any problems like what we are discussing.  I now have a new Coachmen and it does have a battery, mainly because it is new and has a slideout which requires a battery. This is rather interesting.  I’ll have to try connecting a battery to the Prowler to see if furnace decides to work right for a change. Thanks again John.

Response:

If your battery voltage is low, the furnace will not restart but the fan keeps blowing.  This is a common Suburban furnace problem.  The furnace lights OK initially because the battery has recovered a bit.  Then by the time it cycles, the voltage has dropped a bit and the voltage sensing safety circuit in the furnace refuses to relight the burner. I ran into this after 5 days on the flatcars at Copper Canyon.  By the last morning, I could get just one furnace light before the battery voltage dropped too much.  Then the blower kept running just as you described.

Gee – the trailer involved is permanent (not towed).  It is a Prowler Regal.  Anyway, there is NO battery and has not been for several years.  Problem started with replacement sf35 furnace.  The trailer does have the usual power converter, so you would thing the converted 120-12v elec would suffice wouldn’t you? Thanx for interest. John.

Response:

Can someone tell me how the so-called ’sail-switch’ works?  What happens when it fails? TIA

Response:

Can someone tell me how the so-called ’sail-switch’ works?   What happens when it fails?

The sail switch, when actuated, verifies the fan is running. If it is not satisifed at the appropriate time(s), it shuts down the operation so the furnace will not be damaged. Will KD3XR

Response:

Jun 1997 21:16:16 GMT writes: : :Can someone tell me how the so-called ’sail-switch’ works?  What :happens when it fails? : :TIA : Furnace won’t lite.  Sail switch is an air prover, it won’t close until the fan reaches 75% of its rated speed.  When it closes it passes current to the gas valve or the ignition control board depending on whether you have a pilot model or a direct ignition model. Mark http://www.marksrv.com

Response:

  The purpose of the Sail Switch is to insure adequate combustion air flow through the furnace before the gas is turned on. If the sail switch fails to close, no gas, no combustion, no heat.. It could be caused by obstructed air flow. need to check the switch with an ohm meter for continuity when closed and that it moves freely. George

Thanks George.  Now I understand. My furnace problem is that it comes on OK and runs a few minutes OK. But then the burner shuts down, the fan keeps running (blowing cld air soon), and stays that way until I shut it off and then on again.  Then it repeats the same thing again. Maybe it is the limit switch? Thanks again – John rvman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The purpose of the Sail Switch is to insure adequate combustion air flow through the furnace before the gas is turned on. If the sail switch fails to close, no gas, no combustion, no heat.. It could be caused by obstructed air flow. need to check the switch with an ohm meter for continuity when closed and that it moves freely. George Thanks George.  Now I understand. My furnace problem is that it comes on OK and runs a few minutes OK. But then the burner shuts down, the fan keeps running (blowing cld air soon), and stays that way until I shut it off and then on again.  Then it repeats the same thing again. Maybe it is the limit switch? Thanks again – John rvman

I had the same problem and after checking the sail switch and eventually changing the same to no avail,  I discovered the thermosatat was at fault and after replacement, experienced no further problem.  The thermostat was corroded enough, so that when heat was called for it would occasionally work while traveling on the road, but while sitting still in a campground there was no contact between the stat and the furnace itself.  All of these little flukes can be quite frustrating at times and this is what keeps us true blue campers from becoming couch potatoes.  After all what fun would it be if we didn’t have all of these frustrations to keep our minds occupied!

Response: